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Well now... Hopefully some of the smoke cleared and it's okay post this...
Just wanted to share what I've read and heard about the throttle bodies. I don't think I read any posts that mentioned the results of a test that GM Hi Tech Performance did on throttle bodies. (could be wrong) Anyways, I forget which issue it is, I can check if anyone is interested. They put a 70 MM T-body on Old Gray...At the time it was running mid 12's at about 107-108 if I remember correctly. It might have been a KB one, but I guess it doesn't matter in this case. They ended up actually losing a mph or so after the mod. I took that to mean two things... 1) You can definitely go too big and it shows what can happen when you do.
2) It didn't mean if they went to say a 62 MM T-body it wouldn't have helped. Also, I was talking with a friend who (at the time) was running a supercharged 305 in an IROC. He said he was running mid elevens but couldn't remember the mph off the top of his head. I know the car hooks good, so for a rough estimate say it was around 116ish. He went from a stock throttle body to a 1000 CFM one..(which I think was a 58MM) Of course, they have the dual blades... In any case he said he picked more than a tenth and more than a mph from the swap. I should ask him to dig out his slips for more accurate info.
FWIW my belief (since I have never tested different throttle bodies myself) is (and this was said I think) that it will help you if that is becoming a bottleneck. I think the 62MM could help enough to show on a slip when you start making enough power to run 110 or so in the 1/4..(whatever that translates to in HP, obviously it will be different for every car like Mike's which is pretty heavy, so his mph for a given power level is less of course) I know Mike said the ATS readings were the same or similar with both tests...But the only thing I don't agree with is that the runs were on different nights...Same track, similar temps, but there are other variables that I would like to eliminate if I could when doing a test like that...Barometric pressure and humidity are two things that I don't think were mentioned that would have an impact if they were different between the two nights. Also I would launch it soft to guarantee more consistent results. I am in no way saying of course that I don't think it helped at all, which (hopefully) was observed earlier in this post. Hope this added something viable to consider, I don't think some of it was mentioned...Didn't mean to be so long-winded.
P.S. Please don't ban me from the board!! hehe j/k


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RandyCustomShop
"Firechicken"
1982/86/87/88/89 Firebird
Turbo
mailto:[email protected][email protected]</A>

[This message has been edited by RandyCustomShop (edited November 30, 2000).]
 
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Randy,

Having done a majority of the work on "Old Gray", I feel it to be acceptable to comment and add to your posting that, principle wise, I'm in total agreement with.
We were, unintentionally,
but not suprisingly , responsible for breaking it's 226,000 mile untouched motor (valve covers had never been off) after doing some basic bolt-on upgrades to it. We rebuilt the motor and were subsequently fortunate enough to get it to run some nice drag strip numbers under some adverse track conditions with a minimum of internal motor, go-faster, parts.
Other than a flat tappet 206-206 cam and good valve springs, all else internally is stock, including no headwork at all.
The TB and plenum on "Old Gray" is still bone, OEM, 58mm stock.....
With it's best time slip after the rebuild at 11.40's at 120 mph and with P & P heads now being installed, we feel the necessity for a .62 or .65 TB and up-graded plenum. Actually, even before the P&P heads were considdered, I felt that at it's present performance level, a bigger TB and plenum up-grade might be beneficial. Now with good heads, I think the intake up-grade will serve even a better purpose.
So far it's just an opinion of mine, but a confident one.


Ron

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Ron's Custom Automotive
1-800-718-7667
GSCA # 2306 / PR Director
www.ronscustomauto.com
[email protected]
 

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Ron,

Need a 62mm TB/upper??
Just let me know...

Thanks,



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Jay Jackson
(the 62MM TB guy!)
http://hometown.aol.com/ygettv8/myhomepageindex.html

"YGETV8" '86 gray T-Type 94K... high tens...?? (STILL "some assembly required"!) Girdled stock block, Stealth turbo, 20 row IC, 65mm "stock" TB, PI 9.5" 7-disc, Jimmy's Trans, P&P heads, 218/218, Hooker Headers, 3" D.P., HKS w.g., thumbwheel chip, and more... (ran [email protected] with the stock long block, DOTs, thru the muff, & on pump gas!)

'86 GN "Beater"... 137K driver w/ P&P stock turbo, 21.5 psi boost, K&N, 3" DP and ported elbow, 93 chip, 30# inj., Walbro 307, AFPR, new valve springs, alum. drums, 2.5" IC neck, 62mm TB/upper, and that's about it! Best ET: 12.61 (on 215/65 all season radials!); best MPH: 111.97!

'87 WE4 59K ... GNX wheels, 93 chip, ported stock turbo, 21 psi boost, AFPR, Blue Tops, Borla exhaust, K&N, alum. drums... 'bout it! [email protected] on 265/50-16 radial TAs on it's maiden voyage to the track!!
 

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I'm scared to post this again but I will.

After installing a 62mm throttle body and ported upper intake on my GN, I noticed increased throttle and spooling response driving on the street with less throttle movement.

You can even see reduced times from low MAF readings to high MAF readings testing from a stopped dead idle and 5 psi launches on DirectScan. I had consistanly reduced .03 from my 60ft times at the track.

Just my experience and last post on this subject.

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Chad Schwartz (Mr. URL Sir-Links-A-Lot)
mailto:[email protected][email protected]</A>
"The Need For Speed" Website
Cars, pictures, movies, screen savers, tech info, links, and more!
 
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Jay,

Is your version of the .62 mm TB any different from the others I'm used to seeing?
Do you have a modified plenum of any kind that you market ?

Ron

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Ron's Custom Automotive
1-800-718-7667
GSCA # 2306 / PR Director
www.ronscustomauto.com
[email protected]
 
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Chad,

No need to fear offering more input of your personal experiences.

I believe that in the end, the advantages of up-graded air intake components will come to light and be acknowledged by those whose T/R combo / recipe's may need them.

Ron

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Ron's Custom Automotive
1-800-718-7667
GSCA # 2306 / PR Director
www.ronscustomauto.com
[email protected]
 

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Cool. While I wish I could sit here and write a book, we are moving into our new house.. right now.

I am glad we can all discuss the possibilities of what a throttle body upgrade can do to particular cars.

While I DID post numbers of before and after, I was not aware of the barometric pressure. Humidity was 95% according to the thermometer. As always, dew forms on the top of the car at the track once the sun goes down.

I will purchase one of those mini weather stations and bring it to the track next time


Our track does NOT have those printed on our slips... Orlando Speed World? YA RIGHT


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Email Address: mailto:[email protected][email protected]</A>


Current Combo: Stock Turbo, V4, MSD50's, TH DP, JayJackson 62mm TB, 16position MaxEffort Chip.
12.35 & 108.39 Street Trim.
 

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Ron,

I've only seen pics of others on the market. One thing that I do that I haven't seen before is the complete removal of the front half of the throttle shaft to help smooth airflow at WOT -AND- at part throttle.

Mine are CNC machined and are bellmouthed about as much as can possibly be done.

All I am capable of doing to the uppers is enlarging to the new TB size and removing the EGR riser then generously radiusing this area.

Here is a quote from a very recent customer as far as all out airflow gains:

"Recieved the TB and it looks great.Flowed it before and after to record the gain, and we are very pleased.TB was flowed at 21.3 inches of water,the standard for most TB's and carburetors.I tested it on the intake and exhaust scales due to the fact that it is a turbo app.Stock flow was 480 cfm on the intake test, and 398 cfm on the "blow through" test.After being modified it flowed 541 cfm on the intake test and 464 cfm on the exhaust test.All of the testing wes done using straight inlet and exhaust tubes made to eliminate turbulence and get an accurate back to back test without any other variables.Very profesional piece,thanks a bunch."

Guess the other big thing I have going for me is my low overhead which allows me to do these mods relatively inexpensively.

Matter of fact, we may be able to "work something out" for the exposure
.

Thanks,


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Jay Jackson
(the 62MM TB guy!)
http://hometown.aol.com/ygettv8/myhomepageindex.html

"YGETV8" '86 gray T-Type 94K... high tens...?? (STILL "some assembly required"!) Girdled stock block, Stealth turbo, 20 row IC, 65mm "stock" TB, PI 9.5" 7-disc, Jimmy's Trans, P&P heads, 218/218, Hooker Headers, 3" D.P., HKS w.g., thumbwheel chip, and more... (ran [email protected] with the stock long block, DOTs, thru the muff, & on pump gas!)

'86 GN "Beater"... 137K driver w/ P&P stock turbo, 21.5 psi boost, K&N, 3" DP and ported elbow, 93 chip, 30# inj., Walbro 307, AFPR, new valve springs, alum. drums, 2.5" IC neck, 62mm TB/upper, and that's about it! Best ET: 12.61 (on 215/65 all season radials!); best MPH: 111.97!

'87 WE4 59K ... GNX wheels, 93 chip, ported stock turbo, 21 psi boost, AFPR, Blue Tops, Borla exhaust, K&N, alum. drums... 'bout it! [email protected] on 265/50-16 radial TAs on it's maiden voyage to the track!!

[This message has been edited by YGETV8 (edited November 30, 2000).]
 

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I cant sit by and not add some info here. This is my first reply. I made my own 62 TB years ago and was a big gain in throtle response at low to mid throttle. I also made a 1\4 inch spacer at that time. All I could see was a gain at the throttle positon mentioned above. Removed the two parts and was back where I started. My test showed me that I gained nothing from a ET stand piont , but it made it crisper on the low to mid range. I still run a stock TB with the usuall home made porting, gring down the shaft , and have run as fast as 11.25 @119 with stock long block and cam. If I could get one the Jay Jackson TB`s I would be glad to do 3 passes without and 3 passes with on the same day to see what kind of gain we could get. This would be a real good test. Iam always ready to prove a new part. I have heard nothing but good about his TB. Again , only to provide usefull info. Sorry for caring on , but I like to go FAST!!!!!
[email protected]

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dday
 
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All I know is that all this talk made me want one. So ......

Jay,
The stocker and a check is on its way, shipped out Wed. in a big Jensen car stereo box.


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87 Grand National
Champion ported intake, alum. heads,210/205 w- T&D 1.65's,Limit Eng. TE 45,THDP, CAS V2, PMAC, 9.5PI LU,Stage Right TB

95 Ford Lightning
One rusty car trailer
 
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Jay,

If you kindly would send me one of your TB / Plenenum up-grades, I like to examen and fairly evaluate it. If it does what I suspect it will, you will immediately recieve a check for it.

Thanks in advance,

Ron

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Ron's Custom Automotive
1-800-718-7667
GSCA # 2306 / PR Director
www.ronscustomauto.com
[email protected]
 

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DDay: Curious as to what performance level you were at when you tried the 62mm? I'm sure you realize that with the "die grinder mods" you have done to your TB/upper, your offer for a test would probably be less dramatic a change than switching from a bone stock set with the UGLY mismatches still there.

Louie: Thanks... I'll let you know when I get it!

Chris: yes... I use a CNC lathe to do the TB bore work while mounted on a fixture that I made, but use a good ole Bridgeport mill to do the plenums, then follow up with a die grinder.

Ron: Let me get one of my cores assembled and ready to go and I'll get it out to you. I'll email you direct to work out the details.

Thanks,

Jay
 

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They put a 70 MM T-body
on Old Gray...At the time it was running mid 12's at about 107-108 if I
remember correctly. It might have been a KB one, but I guess it doesn't
matter in this case. They ended up actually losing a mph or so after the mod.
I took that to mean two things... 1) You can definitely go too big and it
shows what can happen when you do.

>> WOW, exactly what my friend told me 3 days ago. (I would reveal his name, but I feel that he can do that, if he pleases) He said he was running 123-125 mph at the time.
I had considered a 70 mm to go with my intercooler, but figured it would be ANOTHER part that would slow me down more. I have enough of those.


My test showed me that I gained nothing from a ET stand piont , but
it made it crisper on the low to mid range. I still run a stock TB with the usuall

>> DOUBLE WOW! Flushed DDAY out and he made his first post! Yep, I think we discussed this YEARS ago at a meeting or something. Glad to see your input, Dave! I would like to help you with your testing. We could try it on my car, too. Alternate between runs?
I too try and add solid, good info to most all posts I make. I just go with the flow as far as the mudfests go. I do not post things I don't have a reason to believe. Prolly why you never posted before, huh?


Chad,

No need to fear offering more input of your personal experiences.

>>


I believe that in the end, the advantages of up-graded air intake components
will come to light and be acknowledged by those whose T/R combo / recipe's
may need them.

>> Like I said in the thread that I ruined, the increased airflow would have to be beneficial, at a certain point.. BUT, up to that point, it *can* be detremental. Sorry Ron, but that bulb was already lit. Maybe not as bright as now, but it was on..

I do hope no one takes any of this as any type of flame. That is not what it was intended as. Now or in the last post. What seemed to me that enflamed everyone the most, was that I did not agree hands down on a slight performance varaiation. The density altitude can vary on the same day, elt alone weeks apart. I do apologize to everyone for returning the insults I was tossed. It was childish on my part.

Peace!
 

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On the flow bench, it would naturally flow more air. the difference between a 57mm and 62 mm is over 5/8" area of the opening. 4 square inches compared to 4.68", less the area of the butterfly and shaft.
I would be curious how my car would react to one, but I do not feel that it would be much, if any, performance gain at my level. Who knows, I may be flowing enough air now, that this may make my car finally come around? Maybe that combined with a 218/218 roller cam? I don't have emissions again till july 2002. (my reasoning to go with the mild 206/206 cam, in my new motor)

Well, I think everyone wants to go faster. I seem to be going the other way lately. Did you know you can actually put the fire out with enough fuel? I've become right good at it. 72 lb injectors and 2 340's in the tank.. what a combo. It sure does need to be spooled to lay the fuel on. A real tuning nightmare.
 
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Dan,


Hang in there.... Personally I value and welcome any input you have regarding T/R's.


Most of the BB's dialog is positive and beneficial and it's prudent to keep it this way.
Anyone can disagree with anyone else, and I considder it to be a healthy and constructive aspect of everyone's learning process.
Let's not be afraid to disagree, as long as it's done in a manly and mature manor.


Thankfully, we are all still learning.


Ron

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Ron's Custom Automotive
1-800-718-7667
GSCA # 2306 / PR Director
www.ronscustomauto.com
[email protected]
 

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Hi Dan,
Hang in there man I know it can get frustrating when things don't go right god knows we've all been down that road.But when she comes together it will be all worth it and that's what keeps ya coming back. It's much like my golf game.....played 2 weeks ago in Florida. On one hole I hit a drive thru a gentlemans window of his house...ouch and shot a 110 for the day....bad for me. Yet 48 hours later I eagle a par 4 and shoot a 91 so go figure. Point being that eagle brings me back to play again and same will happen when you get everything staightened out I'm sure....we all keep coming back due to our love for these wonderful cars.

Thats the point of the BB's and gnttype list is a constructive, positive exchange of ideas, heck do we all agree...no....but there is nothing wrong with practicing the wonderful art of dissent from time to time, politians do it all the time even in Florida...lol. As long as it's done in a respectful manner as to not offend anyone or to disrespect their way of achieving maximum performance out of their TR by whichever route they take without chastising them then we all win.
Yes I agree we all still have alot to learn, god knows I have alot to learn and it ain't just about these wonderful cars. Best of luck Dan hang in there and keep us posted on how you make out.
Regards,
Rich from Rich's Auto in New Jersey
[email protected]
 

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Jay,this is Larry in Fla. I put the throttle body on you did for me and i noticed better throttle response at a lower pedal pressure.I was going to redo my fuel press settings because i was running richer before the TB(.820) but now numbers are (.780-90) just bolting it on. I love it and would recommend to anyone,Thanks for keeping it cheap & simple......

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te-62,009's,cas frt mnt,3700 stall,hooker exh w/race magnums,nitto's and much more!!!
 

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Glad you like it Larry!

Chad, did you see the flow results I quoted in my above post?

Dan is correct, though, obviously you are going to see more flow since you are increasing flow area... stands to reason.

Jay
 
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