I dont feel a magnifying glass is required to see an exhaust system that reaches the rear axle :dunno:

Maybe, but I bet i can see the illegal turbo from the 747 you flew in on

 

I dont know about that, Ive seen the car run 8.40s at over 166 with the current combo :eek!:

That only makes my point. I was not aware that Tony had gotten the current combo to hook, I’m extremely happy for him, he’s worked for it! If Tony’s capable of putting down a low 8, no one is going to catch him. I think with that turbo he's going to be able to go much lower than 8.40's.

Art.

 

What about this rule?

No exhaust is clearly a power advantage

I beg to disagree. The advantage if any that is given with a fender dump vs. a 5" elbow into 4" exhaust with a 12” bullet muffler is minimal if any. In my opinion the real advantage would be the weight savings but then Dave has to make weight anyway. It does have the cool factor of open exhaust though....

Although I’d keep my exhaust so I can race Saturday’s at E-Town, this is one rule I’d be willing to get rid of next year so it’ll open up the class.

Art.

 

Why don't we take 2007 TSO rules talk somewhere? I think it's time to start working on them while it's fresh in everyone's mind. I'll have the conversation anywhere but the GSCA board and T6P.

Also, none of this if you didn’t race in TSO last year you don’t get a vote. I think if you have been involved in TSO before or have a car capable of racing in TSO your voice should be heard. I have spoken directly with a few people already and I think many people have a number of good ideas to open up the field and should be heard. Lets for once try to put politics and personal gripes aside and get something constructive done.

What do you say?

Art.

 

Why don't we take 2007 TSO rules talk somewhere? I think it's time to start working on them while it's fresh in everyone's mind. I'll have the conversation anywhere but the GSCA board and T6P.

Also, none of this if you didn’t race in TSO last year you don’t get a vote. I think if you have been involved in TSO before or have a car capable of racing in TSO your voice should be heard. I have spoken directly with a few people already and I think many people have a number of good ideas to open up the field and should be heard. Lets for once try to put politics and personal gripes aside and get something constructive done.

What do you say?

Art.

I agree on this, Although im off the top of my head cant think of any rules to change unless we really open them up.It should be said that if you never ran a TSO car or dont plan to run a TSO car, you should not be involved in any rule discussion.
None of this i built the car stuff.The guy driving or owning the car should be involved.

 

Dave Roland was asked to put the inner fender wells and seat back in and he did comply. He also had to add a a little weight and made the scales. So Dave Roland was legal. I'm not sure who else was illegal other then you Tony? If a board is needed for ALL to participate maybe the BPG board would be best. Many here don't go the T6P or TB.com as some don't come here.

ED,

Rules are rules I was DQed for a violation Dave R violations were pointed out and I was told but he "only has a 76 turbo" so my point as i took it was if the car was no threat it is "OK" thats bull$$$t Illegal is Illegal PERIOD after it was found that dave had no exhaust chris tossed him.Now peer tech was on friday cars were teched and qaulifiying started. On saturday on the last qaulifier their was a new car in the field that had not peered tech but was allowed to run this particular did not make a 9 sec qaulifier pass but sure enough he was allowed to compete hence it only has a 76 turbo "NO THREAT"
That's the crap that lit my fire, last year an illegal car won TSO was that ok to you if rules were enforced to the letter there would be no bull crap but when they get bent "a little" this were we end up

 

Not wanting to poison my own thread that's intended to thank Jack, Brian and the whole Cotton's Crew but here goes.

I'm not sure "who" you're referring to. No one asked my opinion about your turbo although it was well known by people in your camp weeks before the event. Not wanting to drag other names into I won't start dropping names and have people jump all over them. I really don't want to start up a lot of drama over this.

I have been fairly outspoken about the rules. I believe we all need to move toward a rule base that is simpler for everyone and tries to bring more people into the class. I have long said that I'm against bending the rules when the rule gives someone a performance advantage. I assume you are referring to Dave Roland as the "illegal" car. If so I don't think we can make the same comparison between a missing fender well or passenger seat and a T-94 turbo. You're turbo was way too big and clearly outside the rules. Although I heard the argument that you have not been able to get the combo to come together but it still doesn't matter. We all know you're going to eventually get everything to work and then not even Dave Fiscus will be able to catch you. I made it known weeks before the event that I would not allow your turbo in the class as it was outside the rules and it would give you a performance advantage over the rest of the field. I think I was too busy talking with other people during tech (Ted, Otto, Cal, etc) that I didn't even see people ask for a vote. I'll say publicly now that yes Tony, I would have voted you out of the field. You know I consider you a friend and I certainly want you to race in TSO but until you get a turbo smaller or equal to a mid-frame T-88 T-05 flanged turbo, I'm going to vote you out at the events I'm competing at. There is no weight penalty in the rules that allow for a turbo larger than the above so adding 1000lbs to your car is not going to make it compliant with the rules.

Art.

Art,

Thats bull$$$t if there is no a performance advantage its ok to bend the rules
you knew about my turbo before i came down but did not get envolved in the peer teching of my car but now you say PUBICLY that you would have voted me out you guys handeled the situation poorly and about the weight it was chris lions who asked would I be open to add weight and I said sure the fact that I could be 600 lbs heavier than you and on drag radiels still scared you
is what puzzles me you have problems spooling that 82 was I going to spool a 94 quicker. You want to avoid problems stick nto nthe rules period and open the class up weight, 10.5 tire single turbo thats what an outlaw class "if you can run with the big dogs stay on the porch"

 

I agree on this, Although im off the top of my head cant think of any rules to change unless we really open them up.It should be said that if you never ran a TSO car or dont plan to run a TSO car, you should not be involved in any rule discussion.
None of this i built the car stuff.The guy driving or owning the car should be involved.

I personally don't care who is involved in the discussions. The only reason I said "anyone not involved" is because I wanted to keep out people who are going to just try and throw crap out there. If someone has a good idea I'm all ears and I'd like to hear it. Ultimately the rules decision is going to come down to the racers but I think if someone has something to say they should be heard.

I've got a number of ideas to open the field without giving someone a decided performance advantage. I think the key to opening up the field is going to be making rule changes that allow others with existing cars to race but not allow additional performance into the class. Also, I don't think it's in anyone's best interest to take the current car base and put them at a disadvantage based on a new set of cars coming in. The class is never going to be equal but I really don’t think we can allow additional performance into the class. We need to look at who else is out there that would want to run and see if we can tweak or eliminate the non-performance related rules so it will allow these people to race.

We always make rule concessions because of car count. The only way we are going to get to a point where we don’t have to bend the rules is to have a set of rules that allow enough of a car count so we are not making concisions so we can have 7-8 cars.

Art.

 

Tony with that car,even if you put an 88 on it everyone including myself would be scared,but im sure your car would get tore apart looking for even a little infraction at that point

 

I beg to disagree. The advantage if any that is given with a fender dump vs. a 5" elbow into 4" exhaust with a 12” bullet muffler is minimal if any. Art.

If Tony showed up with a 88 turbo on his car and no exhaust, He would have been voted out for sure

 

Point well taken Otto and since you (like myself) have not competed in ANY TSO event for the 2006 season, I agree, you should have absolutely no say in rules discussion.

 

Art,

Thats bull$$$t if there is no a performance advantage its ok to bend the rules
you knew about my turbo before i came down but did not get envolved in the peer teching of my car but now you say PUBICLY that you would have voted me out you guys handeled the situation poorly and about the weight it was chris lions who asked would I be open to add weight and I said sure the fact that I could be 600 lbs heavier than you and on drag radiels still scared you
is what puzzles me you have problems spooling that 82 was I going to spool a 94 quicker. You want to avoid problems stick nto nthe rules period and open the class up weight, 10.5 tire single turbo thats what an outlaw class "if you can run with the big dogs stay on the porch"

I don't want to start a fight about it. I would hope that for next years rules they can be written so that we can have a large enough car count at any event so that we don't have to make any concessions. It's not a matter of a threat, it's about not giving someone a decided advantage. There's a big difference between not having an advantage and not being a threat.

Please don't bring my combo into this. It's legal, I built it to the letter of the rules. The fact that I have spooling issues has nothing to do with this discussion. I really don't know why you would bring it up? I'm not trying to start up crap. I've never been in a TSO situation where someone needed to be DQ'd. I would have thought there would have been a vote. I was talking to others while people were being teched. While I was sill talking to these people I got word that you had been DQ'd. If the other 6 racers had said they were OK with you running, I would have expected that someone would have asked me for my opinion.

Art.

 

Point well taken Otto and since you (like myself) have not competed in ANY TSO event for the 2006 season, I agree, you should have absolutely no say in rules discussion.

Well i plan on running my car in TSO at Reynolds this year and possibly Cecil (if they have TSO there)if its ready,so we can save this comment till nov.

 

Tony with that car,even if you put an 88 on it everyone including myself would be scared,but im sure your car would get tore apart looking for even a little infraction at that point

I disagree. I'm not about to jump under someone's car and try to tear it down. I'd love to win another TSO event but I don't really care that much about it.

I'll say it again, maybe we can come up with a set of rules where there are more than 10 cars in the entire country that are legal. That's the problem, only a handful of cars that are legal and they never make it to all the events. Car count down, rules are bent. Make the rules wide enough and simple enough to figure out and maybe the rules can stop being bent. I’m all for teching to the letter of the rules but with the current rules we’d end up with 3 cars racing. Where’s the fun in that?

Art.

 

Well i plan on running my car in TSO at Reynolds this year and possibly Cecil (if they have TSO there)if its ready,so we can save this comment till nov.

Good luck on getting it together, no TSO or TSM at cecil.

 

I'll have the conversation anywhere but the GSCA board and T6P.

You know, Art.. I have to tell you that I take that comment as a personal insult. You guys bitched and moaned about Travis this, Travis that and the board is sold, Travis has no say in anything any more and you still continue to bag on T6P.

What did Shane or I do to you that's so bad that you won't use the board?

I'll tell you like it is. You aren't going to find anyone else that loves Buicks and the Buick community as much as Shane does. That's why he bought the board and that's why he owns a whole freakin' fleet of these cars. I imagine he'll continue to sponsor the race class(es) next year as well and keep giving back to the Buick community like he's done behind the scenes this past year. He eats and sleeps Buicks and unlike everyone else involved in the game, he doesn't make a freakin dime off of anyone in the Buick community.

You guys that continue to hate on T6P because of Travis just need to move on. If you want somewhere to talk about the rules, I'll gladly create a dedicated forum that you can discuss it and let you moderate it any way you want. I don't have a horse in this race so I couldn't care less how you guys want to manage it but all this hating on us for no reason needs to stop. One day everything is all good and the next day we suck again.

 

If Tony showed up with a 88 turbo on his car and no exhaust, He would have been voted out for sure

I wouldn't have voted him out, this isn't Bowling Green. If we had enough 100% legal cars at an event we could tech to the letter of the rules.

I’m all for a rule change to allow open exhaust for 2007. See Otto, I knew you could think about a rule change for 2007…

Art.

 

Point well taken Otto and since you (like myself) have not competed in ANY TSO event for the 2006 season, I agree, you should have absolutely no say in rules discussion.

Now, now children! If either of you have ideas I for one want to hear them, regardless if you have ever raced in TSO! This is what kills the class.

Art.

 

Well i plan on running my car in TSO at Reynolds this year and possibly Cecil (if they have TSO there)if its ready,so we can save this comment till nov.

Hope you have the car for Cecil!!

Art.

 

Artie,Im not saying you would have got under his car.
But there was a group of people there.

 

I don't want to start a fight about it. I would hope that for next years rules they can be written so that we can have a large enough car count at any event so that we don't have to make any concessions. It's not a matter of a threat, it's about not giving someone a decided advantage. There's a big difference between not having an advantage and not being a threat.

Please don't bring my combo into this. It's legal, I built it to the letter of the rules. The fact that I have spooling issues has nothing to do with this discussion. I really don't know why you would bring it up? I'm not trying to start up crap. I've never been in a TSO situation where someone needed to be DQ'd. I would have thought there would have been a vote. I was talking to others while people were being teched. While I was sill talking to these people I got word that you had been DQ'd. If the other 6 racers had said they were OK with you running, I would have expected that someone would have asked me for my opinion.

Art.

ART,

I did not bring your legality to question i could really care less I treat the class like an outlaw class hence the TSOUTLAW that it is. my point was its not easy spoolin big turbos and with your 82 you know what i mean my car has never dominated TSO but it was dq'd like it has. Did you guys confuse me with dave F thats domination if it wasn,t for the politics at norwalk he would won all 4 events. You want car count open the rules or do away with the outlaw class because it is not run like an outlaw class you look at potential combos and dq them if every racing sport was run like that there would be no innovation let combo the run when it dominates review it thats an outlaw class

 

Good luck on getting it together, no TSO or TSM at cecil.

Thanks Pal.Im trying

 

I have voiced it before but in my opinion the class could really open up with more participation using a minimum weight,single turbo,and tire size. The rules are not indicative of a true outlaw class and make it difficult to build a competitive car for events other than Buick races.

see my post above Art! LOL!!!

 

You know, Art.. I have to tell you that I take that comment as a personal insult. You guys bitched and moaned about Travis this, Travis that and the board is sold, Travis has no say in anything any more and you still continue to bag on T6P.

What did Shane or I do to you that's so bad that you won't use the board?

I'll tell you like it is. You aren't going to find anyone else that loves Buicks and the Buick community as much as Shane does. That's why he bought the board and that's why he owns a whole freakin' fleet of these cars. I imagine he'll continue to sponsor the race class(es) next year as well and keep giving back to the Buick community like he's done behind the scenes this past year. He eats and sleeps Buicks and unlike everyone else involved in the game, he doesn't make a freakin dime off of anyone in the Buick community.

You guys that continue to hate on T6P because of Travis just need to move on. If you want somewhere to talk about the rules, I'll gladly create a dedicated forum that you can discuss it and let you moderate it any way you want. I don't have a horse in this race so I couldn't care less how you guys want to manage it but all this hating on us for no reason needs to stop. One day everything is all good and the next day we suck again.

Good point Jay, sorry about that, you guys didn’t deserve that! I’m honestly taking a wait and see stance on T6P. If things are really different over there then I’ll post there. I’ve got nothing against you and I don’t know Shane. I haven’t seen much change but then again, I can’t see anything over there cause the forms seem to still be locked to guest access.

I don’t think people are dumping on T6P anymore. I haven’t seen it. I was not meaning to dump on T6P. I frequent TBs.com the most but I realize that some may not want to post here. I’m willing to acknowledge this and go somewhere else for the TSO discussions. I think the most neutral site is the best site for this in my opinion. I vote for either BPG or the Indy site. Nice and neutral and lets just get this thing done.

Art.

 

Artie,Im not saying you would have got under his car.
But there was a group of people there.

Although I can't speak for everyone in the class, I don't think anyone from the JCC would have nit-picked Tony's car.

Art.