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Someone Crown My Ass!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I put the TSS top ring Total-Seals in my current 3.8 motor. I always get a little smoke off-idle and wonder if it is related to the rings? In the past I used Speed-Pro rings and they sealed real quick (back it out of the garage). I have about 10 miles on these and get a little smoke. I pull 19" of vacuum at idle in gear so I am wondering if I could be sucking oil in from somewhere. I wanted to see the characteristics of them and see if maybe someone else got this then it went away. One nice thing about the Total-Seals I see so far is the oil drip out the breathers is gone even on hard passes. yup
 

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maybe that extra vacuum is pulling a little round the guides or thru the pcv?
 

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Someone Crown My Ass!
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Could be. I set everything up the way Total-Seal suggested for what I am doing. They want PC seals on the intakes and PC/Umbrellas on the exhaust which is what I have. Factory had nothing on the exhaust but the increased vacuum changes things so they suggest seals. I plan on taking the PCV valve out and see what that does. I used the Total-Seal quick seat powder on the install which they claim will set the rings quicker and give less than 1% leakdown. Maybe these just take longer to seat.
 

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I thought they were supposed to seal fast...but, I may be thinking of something else.

just pinch the pcv with some vise grips.

And just for the heck of it, check the up pipe to the tb.
 

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Turbo Buick Tweaker
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:D stuff the nozzle of a spray paint can up in the pcv hose then hook it back up it'll look stock but stop sucking oil in your intake

if it keeps up pull the valve covers and look in the springs and see if boost has pushed your seals off the top of the guides

the oil control rings that total seal uses are speed pro's :p
 

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Someone Crown My Ass!
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Steve,

Turbo smoke? It is a brand new turbo but I have seen people in the past getting leakage when oil flow gets too high. Worth a look next.
 

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Definately check if your seals got blown to to top of the stem, happened to me. I have used the total seal second ring on my last motor, and had some huge vacuum. My current unstarted refreshed motor has the total seal top rings. They are worth 13hp over the bottom rings on our motors.
 

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Someone Crown My Ass!
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Laz,

Standard tension oil rings.


Craig,

That is an interesting piece of info. How did you get that number? The top ring setup is expensive but supposedly worth it. I also put Total-Seal second gland setup in my 4.1. They do not make the top ring gapless in that size. At least they didn't when I put mine together. If the seals pushed up how can you prevent it from doing this?


What gaps are you guys using? I set mine up looser because I run Hypers and don't want to chance the rings butting and pulling the piston top off. I used .027" top and second.


I need to check a few things.
 

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The correct total seal rings are the gapless second ring not the top ring! I just checked with the TS Eng. and have the correct p/n for the ring set. This is the correct set for a boosted engine and the top ring gets too hot because of cylinder temps. (1700*) I run the PC seals on both valves, PCV is working, turbo is new and no smoke on start up! I'm having another set of heads done now this way and with Ferrea Valves, exh. guides machined for the positive valve seals and getting rid of that dumb stock O ring on the exhaust valve seal! My built engine pulls 20 in of vacuum at idle W/O TS rings and with the 206/206 cam. My guides are bronze lined and machine to fit these valves! Gene
 

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Someone Crown My Ass!
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The top ring setup is new and the preferred setup for boosted applications even according to Summit and Jeg's catalogs. It costs 2X the second ring setup but is supposedly worth it. Get the top ring setup Gene, the latest technology. Maybe it is my stupid injectors fueling me to death.
I did check with the machine shop guy and relayed the part about the valve seals lifting and he had doubts. It would take worn guides for this to happen wouldn't it?
 

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Someone Crown My Ass!
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I just grabbed my invoice from Jeg's for the Total-Seal top ring gapless set I have in my 3.8 motor:

Buick V-6 Turbo Max Seal Rings Part # 0901M2165 25 @ $222.99 a set.

The 25 must be the file-fit number for my .020" overbore.

Also have the invoice for the Total-Seal second ring gapless set I put in my 4.1 motor:

TSS Ring Set 4.1 Buick Part # 0901916502091-06 @ $89.99 a set.

That is for a .020" overbore 4.1.


Little info on the ring types. I don't see Max Seals listed and TSS rings they say aren't intended for Blown applications but I know several running them. I think Red's has these and Lee Thompson in his 4.1 as just a couple. They need to update with the new info: http://www.totalseal.com/typer.html
 

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Turbo Buick Tweaker
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yup mine are second ring gapless dunno

working fine for me.. 2 years and going strong

just pulled my heads apart tonight and guides check out perfect and I have blown my seals off the intake guides

I clean the top of the guides real good with brake cleen or laqur thinner then use crazy glue to hold em on

works great had to pry them off tonight.

finally stepping up to 1.77 valves on mine headbang
 

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Someone Crown My Ass!
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Is this something that can be done in-car with no problems? The machinest said it can be done the way you did it or knurl the tops to give it something to bite on.
 

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CallMeMud:

Craig,
That is an interesting piece of info. How did you get that number?
My engine builder was talking to the reps at some sort of industry show and they found out about the top rings, my second rings were ordered some time before that. They were told that it was worth 13 hp over the second ring. So they ordered them and sent my second rings back. They also tested gaplees on both rings, but had a whole lot of ring flutter from pressure being trapped between them.
My valve seals were the stock kind. And on my motor always seemed to have oil on the plugs. After I blew my hg's, I took them over to have them cleaned and that was the first thing they seen, the seals were blown up the stem. They put the viton seal on I think, the head had to be machined for them.

<small>[ June 25, 2003, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: CraigT ]</small>
 

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I got the phone number from Summit and called Total Seal. The engineer told me to run the second TS Ring as did Summit Sales Rep. He confirmed the P/N Summit gave me was the correct ring set. I'm using them on stock bore, stock pistons not aftermarket ones. Maybe this make a difference? I'm no ring expert and don't profess to be one but just shared what little information on using these rings! Most fast cars use these rings because of the small amount of leak down and that makes more HP! As far as my guide seals blowing off it hasn't happened yet on my motor. My head expert is one of the best in the twin cities and knows his stuff. He repairs both aluminum and cast head cracks and warranties them. He hand laps the valves after doing a valve job and uses an up dated version of a Serdi Valve Grinding machine and vacuum checks the finished products, my guides a fully bronzed lined top to bottom. Spendy but I want them done that way! I use 10* valve stem keepers, lightened retainers, Comp Cams springs etc. My motor revs so easy to 6K it is scary! Gene
 

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Someone Crown My Ass!
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Kind of unrelated but I was at the track today and my friend Eric had his 78 Malibu with a 406 in it (9.60's all motor). He runs a belt driven vacuum pump and he told me he regulates it back from -16" to -12" so he doesn't suck the mains dry. Different than my problem but when I told him my car is -19" at idle he said I should get one of the bleeds from Aerospace to adjust it. Think this is the case or would hurt anything for street driving?
 

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Turbo Buick Tweaker
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:confused:

your running a crankcase vacum pump?

the oiling system shouldnt be affected by a vacuum in the crankcase if running a wet sump
 

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Someone Crown My Ass!
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
No vacuum pump...just from the rings. My friend has a wet sump too but said all the cars they set up with the pump they regulate the vacuum.
 
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