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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just registered after spending days looking at all the history that has been talked about and was very impressed with the comments and knowledge along with the different combo’s everyone has!! It’s actually GREAT to see so many people having so many different methods to achieve their goals.

I have some questions though for those who have stock long blocks including cam (ported iron heads ok).
I was trying to attempt the Tim Stockwell approach (stock engine with LOTSA BOOST – 25# minimum) but it didn't quite pan out. The first time out I was hoping around 11.7-11.8's but got 12.0's instead. It appears right now that my stock intercooler is the first bottle neck (not surprising though). I know I need to get more air through the system so my plans are to install CAS V4 and 63mm TB. I’m looking for 11.4’s or quicker…

Can anybody out there with the same goal as me give me some results to there combos and what they found worked (or didn’t work) for them? Any first hand knowledge is greatly appreciated!!

PS.. I had a mustang.. But I Love the GN BETTER!! : )


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87GN, 12.05 @ 111, SIXTY FOOT 1.60-LAUNCH 15#, BOOST 25-26 LBS (YEP OVERKILL FOR COMBO), BONE STOCK LONG BLOCK, STOCK I.C. (BELL MOUTHED), STOCK TRANS/CONV, TE44, 009'S, RED'S 107 CHIP. HOME MADE 3" DOWN PIPE. RUNS CONSISTANT 12.10'S-12.11'S.
http://www.geocities.com/kdslaby/solidworks.html


[This message has been edited by KEVINS (edited March 15, 2001).]
 
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Although I'm kind of proud of it, and would not recommend anyone trying to wring out the best E.T possible with a stock bottom end, I wen't 11.16 @ 121 a couple years ago.
On that same day, after this I made 4 consecutive 32 psi boost passes. The only negative thing that happened was my passenger side head lifted a bit.
Once I found out what the motor was capable of, we pulled it and done up the bottom end with small cam and etc. This was foolish on my part, but in all four runs, there was only one frame of 3.5 degrees of spark retard. When we opened the motor, everything was perfect inside, i.e., head gaskets, bearings, and etc.

Ron

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Ron's Custom Automotive
Certified NJ Emission Repair Facility
1-800-718-7667
GSCA # 2306 / PR Director
BCA # 26330
www.ronscustomauto.com
[email protected]
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Ron for the reply.
I’ve seen several of your editorials and I soak them all up to understand the theories.

I love that combination!!
Why is there such a concern about running so much boost using the stock cam and induction system? I can understand about the load on the bottom end but I don’t see the issue with what I’d like to do. Is a high boosted, stock motor more sensitive to tuning compared to a low boost, cammed and better induction motor?
How did you go about choosing the parts to run that fast? Did you run into any particular problems when running that combination? This combination sounds great, why wouldn’t you do it again?

Thanks again for any help!


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87GN, 12.05 @ 111, SIXTY FOOT 1.60-LAUNCH 15#, BOOST 25-26 LBS (YEP OVERKILL FOR COMBO), BONE STOCK LONG BLOCK, STOCK I.C. (BELL MOUTHED), STOCK TRANS/CONV, TE44, 009'S, RED'S 107 CHIP. HOME MADE 3" DOWN PIPE. RUNS CONSISTANT 12.10'S-12.11'S.
http://www.geocities.com/kdslaby/solidworks.html


[This message has been edited by KEVINS (edited March 15, 2001).]
 
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Originally posted by KEVINS:
Thanks Ron for the reply.
I’ve seen several of your editorials and I soak them all up to understand the theories.

I love that combination!!
Why is there such a concern about running so much boost using the stock cam and induction system? I can understand about the load on the bottom end but I don’t see the issue with what I’d like to do. Is a high boosted, stock motor more sensitive to tuning compared to a low boost, cammed and better induction motor?
How did you go about choosing the parts to run that fast? Did you run into any particular problems when running that combination? This combination sounds great, why wouldn’t you do it again?

Thanks again for any help!



With the understanding that we build street cars that run well at the dragstrip, our formost priority is streetability. 95% of our customer database is street cars with occasional to semi-frequent usage on the dragstrip.
Most, if not all, of the go-faster parts we impliment probably make the car even more streetable. Most T/R motors require very little cam to greatly enhance performance levels. Inasmuch as the stock GM cam is discontinued, we have a preferred very small cam up-grade grind (either flat tappet or roller) that will take a production 3.8 motor far beyond the stress limitations we chose to place on it. We like to limit stock bottom end motors to the 11.50 level. Once it has been beefed up with forged pistons , steel caps, and etc. these motors can usually live a reasonably long life in the high 10 sec. range.
The initial approach to a build-up is to first get a good scan tool with recall. DS is number 1 in our opinion. Once in place, and you are assured the motor is internally healthy, go for the bolt-ons.
Fueling is always first. Once in place you can address bigger injectors, turbos, ICs, DPs and etc.
Then in concert with the bolt-ons, the torque converter is what can make or brake a recipe. Lastly is the tuning and traction issue.
There are two main things that break T/R motors, other than wear, tare or neglect. They are detonation and over-reving. The reason we like mild cams is their power band is lower than the big cams many rave about, who must twist the motor above and beyond the 5400 - 5500 RPM safe level we like to keep them within. Above these levels the block core can shift and twist and if you throw some accidental detonation into the mix, this is when breakage can and usually starts and either consumates immediatly or eventually.
Another thing to considder is to take the average RPMs your motor sees during a good and productive 1/4 mile pass. If everything is in order, it's about or the 4800 - 5000 range. So why a cam who's peak power band is near the 6000 band ? I never understood this. In a more forgiving Stage motor, RPM levels like this can be acceptable.
Everytime a motor detonates, internal cylinder overheating occurs (head gasket damage or weakening) and the reciprocating assembly gets jerked out of it's usual smooth flowing sync pounding on the bearings, crankshaft, wrist pin bores, and etc. With this happening in the cylinder and with the bottom end at the same time, breakage is enevitable.
The potential problem with running high boost levels is there simply is not enough of fasteners holding the head to the block. Using studs is the best option here, but 14 bolt heads get clamped more efficiently.
With 8 bolt heads, under high boost levels, even with out detonation , they can lift and shift the head gasket. Thats why we choose to o-ring all P&P iron or alum. heads we install.
The main reason I got away without detonation (only 1 T/L frame of 3.5 degrees) during my four 32 psi runs was the car was over-fuel, tuned pretty good and had the right bolt-ons.
It makes me sort of sad to read about guys who want to see how fast they can go budgeted or with the minimum of up-grades (wring every last 10th out of the recipe). The next 10th reduction they try for usually winds up in something breaking. We preach not to use this mindset for performance goals, but on the other hand it keeps our shop full of broken T/Rs.


Ron

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Ron's Custom Automotive
Certified NJ Emission Repair Facility
1-800-718-7667
GSCA # 2306 / PR Director
BCA # 26330
www.ronscustomauto.com
[email protected]
 

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Can anybody out there with the same goal as me give me some results to there combos and what they found worked (or didn’t work) for them? Any first hand knowledge is greatly appreciated!!

Hi Kevins you can check out my web site for the parts I have on my GN that helped it run 11.12 @ 120.41mph back in May '96


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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks Turbo-D! Beautiful cars! Your combo sounds like something that I thought would work (and am interested in) but I'm a little new at Turbo regals. I've raced nitroused Mustangs for 13 years but I feel like a fish out of water with these cars but I'm reading and taking in everything everone says. I do have a question though: How much boost and how much fuel psi did you need to run those #'s? It looks like we have the same 009's so it looks like these will work for me. What converter did you use, stock
? I'm keeping your web page for reference!

Thanks Again..

kevin

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87GN, 12.05 @ 111, SIXTY FOOT 1.60-LAUNCH 15#, BOOST 25-26 LBS (YEP OVERKILL FOR COMBO), BONE STOCK LONG BLOCK, STOCK I.C. (BELL MOUTHED), STOCK TRANS/CONV, TE44, 009'S, RED'S 107 CHIP. HOME MADE 3" DOWN PIPE. RUNS CONSISTANT 12.10'S-12.11'S.
http://www.geocities.com/kdslaby/solidworks.html


[This message has been edited by KEVINS (edited March 15, 2001).]
 

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I got it figured out
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I made 4 consecutive 32 psi boost passes.

>> 32......22...... it all good.


Regards,
Rich from Rich's Auto in New Jersey
[email protected]
 

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Kevins,

just curious about your current combo.

Are you running a scantool? What are your 02s going down the track?

Did you lock the convertor?

Are you running through the exhaust? Still have a stock exhaust?

With 25psi and a TE44 I think you still have some more to go. The stock intercooler does supposed to suck but alot of guys have gone way faster than 111 on it.


Since your not running 30psi just yet you may want to try a reds 108 instead of a 107 as long as you keep a close eye on knock and run good fuel. The 108 has more timing which should help you.

Keep Tweaking and playing. It will go well into the 11s with what you have. Good Luck!

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Mike Schoenfeld


[This message has been edited by TTA89 (edited February 16, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by TTA89 (edited February 16, 2001).]
 

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Kevins when I ran those numbers I ran 23lbs boost and 42lbs fuel pressure vacume line off. And my converter is an ArtCarr 9" non lock up. Thanks for the complements.
Dave

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks TTA89 for the positive thoughts


I run a Scanmaster for tuning and I did not lock the converter. I knew nothing about it at the time. It’s one of my things to try the next time out though. I do have a question for you guys about locking the converter.

1. Does just leaving the trans in Drive cause the converter to lockup at all?
2. Can the chip be programmed to lock it up automatically at a predetermined RPM?
3. Is the “switch in the ashtray” idea the only way to lock it up? I’ve seen several articles on how to do it with a switch so doing it won’t be a big issue.

You may also be surprised to know that I was also leaving the trans in Over Drive during my runs and just about the 1000’ mark it’d shift into OD. The reason for this is I have 2 other friends with turbo cars running the same et’s (with stock turbo and intercooler) and they had fuel problems with the stock pump (which they didn’t diagnose as being the problem) so they were leaving the car in OD and passed the recommendation on to me. I have since passed the idea of leaving the trans in Drive to them and after installing new pumps they picked up .2+ (each one is now running 11.8’s and 11.9’s) but this could have been from their mild head porting they did. They were not “locking” the converter unless the chip or leaving it in drive does it automatically.

Cutout was open on the 3” DP.
Straight Cam2 Purple
XP fuel pump

My scan readings on my 12.058 @ 110 were:
Knock: 4.7 checked in Drive only (Red Armstrong recommended checking in high gear only)
O2: .750
Fuel PSI (with the line OFF!): 56 psi (Armstrong can’t explain this although he has a theory)
Boost: unknown- approx.25-26

My scan readings on my 12.12 @ 110 were:
Knock: 1.6
O2: .773
Fuel PSI (with the line OFF!): 60 psi
Boost: 26

Sorry this is so long. Felt like I’d better explain some things.

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87GN, 12.05 @ 111, SIXTY FOOT 1.60-LAUNCH 15#, BOOST 25-26 LBS (YEP OVERKILL FOR COMBO), BONE STOCK LONG BLOCK, STOCK I.C. (BELL MOUTHED), STOCK TRANS/CONV, TE44, 009'S, RED'S 107 CHIP. HOME MADE 3" DOWN PIPE. RUNS CONSISTANT 12.10'S-12.11'S.
http://www.geocities.com/kdslaby/solidworks.html


[This message has been edited by KEVINS (edited March 15, 2001).]
 

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Originally posted by KEVINS:


1. Does just leaving the trans in Drive cause the converter to lockup at all?


Not at WOT. Unless the chip is programed to lock it up at WOT which they dont usually do unless you ask.


2. Can the chip be programmed to lock it up automatically at a predetermined RPM?


Not sure about RPM but they can do it for MPH.


3. Is the “switch in the ashtray” idea the only way to lock it up? I’ve seen several articles on how to do it with a switch so doing it won’t be a big issue.


You can use a piece of wire or a paperclip and "short" the terminals in the ALDL while in the staging lanes but I think a switch is alot better and less hassle. Plus if you "short" the ALDL in the staging lanes the convertor is going to be locked during your burnout.

I do my burnout and then roll to the line and flip the switch. That way it locks as soon as the car shifts to second gear. I tried flipping it after the 3rd gear and I lost mph and ET so I always flip the switch at the line. Try it and see what works best for you. Either way you will pick up some time for sure. Do you have a trans cooler?



You may also be surprised to know that I was also leaving the trans in Over Drive during my runs and just about the 1000’ mark it’d shift into OD.


Yeah quit that
Its not good for the tranny and your losing time there also.


and they had fuel problems with the stock pump (which they didn’t diagnose as being the problem) so they were leaving the car in OD and passed the recommendation on to me.


What are you running for a fuel pump??

Your Fuel settings seem WAY high for the Mph and injectors your running!! Your 02s seem pretty good for racing. 750s is right where I like to run them.

Sounds like you have a few things to try and figure out. IF you 60ft the same and lock the convertor at the line and keep it in drive you'll be in the 11s no problem.


Good luck


[/B][/QUOTE]



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Mike Schoenfeld
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks Mike for the converter tips!

I definitely have to lock it up now!
It seems to me that locking the converter in 1st gear (like 40-60 feet out) will allow the car to use the full potential of the low rpm torque and the first gear acceleration capabilities since acceleration is greatest in first gear. Has this ever been done? After I get my intercooler and 63mm TB, I’m going to do some serious tuning. After reviewing many people combo’s I’m even more excited about runnin’ some serious numbers.
I’m running a single hot wired XP pump, only run race gas and no tranny cooler.

I was just looking through the archives again and saw some V4 comparison runs and it looks like this thing is sooo worth the money!

Hey I have another question: I know that the cam sensor times the injectors, but can this thing ever be turned to help performance or should it just be set to factory spec’s and left alone? This spring I’m going to see if anyone has ever messed with it’s settings.

Kevin..
 

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I definitely have to lock it up now!
It seems to me that locking the converter in 1st gear (like 40-60 feet out) will allow the car to use the full potential of the low rpm torque and the first gear acceleration capabilities since acceleration is greatest in first gear. Has this ever been done?

Your converter will not lock up in first gear, only after it shifts into second. Try getting a Red Armstrong race chip and it will lock up your converter after shifting into second and you don't have to worry about it.
Dave

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Before you go to a V4 you could think about a big neck on the stock intercooler. Mine runs 115 mph @ 22 psi and I don't have any complaints, yet. Next time I go to the track, I'm planning to bring my unmodified stock intercooler, and swap them to see how much the neck is worth scientifically.

I have been using a lock up switch for five years (switching it on after my burn out) and its worth a consistant .2/2mph and its definately easier on you car than running in OD.

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UNGN
My Timeslips Page
My G-body Homepage
 

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Low 11's are within reach on a completely stock engine without parts breakage. Fueling/Tuning is the key to the equation. Ron is exactly right when he said to avoid detonation. Direct Scan is the best product I have seen or used for a stock ECM. I would carefully watch o2, KR, and RPM after every run. But don't always rely on o2 readings. I have been fooled by o2 readings. I use and EGT gage to cross reference against o2 readings.

85 GN [email protected] 1.52 60' 100% stock unported 86 LC2 engine, PTE 52, PTE IC, Accel DFI

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[This message has been edited by turbodave231 (edited February 20, 2001).]
 

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I agree that you can not effectivly "see" what is going on without DirectScan. For someone who wants to visit the track, and get into the 11's, you really need DS as a bare minimum. Me? I use the scan master for every day driving, then i haul out the laptop for strip use.

About locking the converter....

I know guys have different opinions about when to lock it ect..

I have back to back "hot laps" documented with not locking/locking the converter. How does .35 and 3.5mph difference sound? Now that is a huge difference. It's all about keeping the RPM's in that certain range that makes the most power. I *ALWAYS* hit the ash tray lockup switch at ~75mph according to the digital dash. I often wonder about the guys that lock it at the line, or use the paperclip. I wonder if they would gain anything by locking it around 75mph. Again, all this will depend on cam, tire diameter, rear end gear, converter blah blah blah...

but for those of you with a stock cam, 3.42's, stock size tire (i am using nitto's), give it a try. I did try locking the converter at the line on a few occasions. I found the motor bogged to much, especially on the 1-2 shift. When my RPMs dropped too much, the timing in the chip went up a few degrees. The WOT timing is based off of the RPM, and when it drops to 3300rpm, more timing is commanded and I get knock. Especially if I am running on the edge already.

Can anybody out there with the same goal as me give me some results to there combos and what they found worked (or didn’t work) for them? Any first hand knowledge is greatly appreciated!!
While I am no pioneer, I went 12.0's @ 110.5mph with the stock turbo. Plus, I was only using 20* of timing, which I consider to be conservative. That same night I went 11.92 @ 111.77mph experimenting with some higher timing. Keep in mind my race weight is 3740# to 3750# depending on how much beer is in the trunk
. So I do not have one of those freakish light cars.. (go away Chuck
). This was running ~22-23psi in 3rd and 112oct. I attribute this success to the MaxEffort Thumbwheel chip. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I think using a Red's, Thrasher, or whatever for serious racing is a crap shoot when it comes to making *your* car do what *you* want. These chips are cut for a wide range of cars, and when someone does run some good numbers with them, I am convinced it's just luck and most always they will have different results on different days.

With guys running 56psi static fuel pressure, it makes you wonder how the car is idling, launching, or even spooling. You would assume the car was recieving WAY too much fuel until WOT was reached. Most people don't realize it's actually counterproductive to manually adjust the fuel pressure. The one#-of-fuel for ever one#-of-boost rule always has me wondering. When one increase fuel pressure for WOT with the regualtor, they have also just drowned out the idle, spool, and everything in between, to achive their desired O2 at WOT.

Me? I set me fuel pressure to 43psi about 6 months ago. I don't even know where my gauge is so I can't check it if I wanted to. (wait, hey Scottie, gimme my gauge back). I really think if people would buy a MaxEffort, and quit messing with their FPR's, these cars would be going faster than they already do. I know mine did. No offense here Kevins, but with a TE-44 and some "Red's" timing (probably 26-28*) that thing should scream. I say, ditch the generic chip and go with something you can fine tune and adjust for *your* car.

Sorry for the book. But I know how frusterating it is to make a pass and be very dissapointed in the numbers. It's all in the combo, the state of tune, and how you can make minor adjustments, without touching the FPR..

Hope that helps.

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Email Address: mailto:[email protected][email protected]</A>


Stock Turbo, Stock Heads, Stock CAM, V4, MSD50's, TH DP, JayJackson 62mm TB, 16position MaxEffort Chip. 3750# with Driver
12.35 & 108.39 Street Trim
11.92 @ 111.77 Race Ready

[This message has been edited by Orlando_87GN (edited February 27, 2001).]
 

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Mike,

I got the billet adjustable FPR and it is set to 42#. Initial tests shows it is holding steady but the real test is tomorrow night at the track. Hopefully after tomorrow night I can stop nervously checking the fuel pressure between every run.


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Scottie's GNZ
 

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Hey, set it and forget it, 43psi though.

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Email Address: mailto:[email protected][email protected]</A>


Stock Turbo, Stock Heads, Stock CAM, V4, MSD50's, TH DP, JayJackson 62mm TB, 16position MaxEffort Chip. 3750# with Driver
12.35 & 108.39 Street Trim
11.92 @ 111.77 Race Ready
 

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It appears right now that my stock intercooler is the first bottle neck (not surprising though).
Blah, I have seen a local club member go 114mph+ with the stock I/C and big turbo.

He was/is clueless on tuning/driving the car, and was just out at the track one day messing around. I watched it go 114mph a few times. I say look elsewhere.

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Email Address: mailto:[email protected][email protected]</A>


Stock Turbo, Stock Heads, Stock CAM, V4, MSD50's, TH DP, JayJackson 62mm TB, 16position MaxEffort Chip. 3750# with Driver
12.35 & 108.39 Street Trim
11.92 @ 111.77 Race Ready
 

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KEVINS,
This may be a little late of a reply,but it may help. I have similar parts to you.Te-44,009`s.I also use a CAS V-2 front mount,a 70mmT-B,Hemco upper,and a D-5 that stalls 3000.Boost is 25#. Fuel is 46# line off.I use a scanmaster2.Launches are 6-8#.With a low 1.6 60ft.My best to date is [email protected]
The car has 90k,and is unopened. Except for 100# valve springs.The converter is locked,
and I have a precision exhaust housing.(63/82) I hope this was useful info.
Brian

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stock motor,90k,3750#`s,
[email protected],25psi,te-44,
009`s,70mm,hemco,CAS v2
 
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