How to best protect yourself during online and phone buying.

[earlbrown]

With all the stories I've been reading about people getting ripped off, I'd like to throw out a few ideas that have worked well for me.
Anytime you buy from someone and have to send funds via the mail or the phone, you always run a risk of getting ripped off. You can recieve the wrong item, a misrepresented item, or just not recieve anything.
The easiest and most effective way to protect yourself and your money is to ALWAYS USE A CREDIT CARD WHEN POSSIBLE!!!! Credit cards have buyer protection. They WILL back the cardholder in almost every case of dispute. First they make so much money on interest from the cardholder and thier "discount rate" where they keep a % of funds from the merchant. They're easy to get ahold of. Just look on the back of the card, and call the number. It's that easy.
If a vendor doesen't take credit cards, that should be taken as a clue. Why would a vendor make it difficult for a person to spend money unless it's to avoid buyer protection??? (ring a bell, anyone?)
If, for example, a vendor sends you a wrong item and wants you to mail it back and then they will mail you the correct stuff..... The correct reply is "NO. Send me what I've paid for and send a "call tag" to get your stuff back" Basically a "call tag" is like mailing collect, they have to pay for the shipping if they want it back. In this case you have three things going for you.

1) you haven't recieved what you paid for

2)It's not your fault and you shouldn't pay to mail it back (not to mention triple the about of time to get the stuff you didpay for).

and 3) On a phone order or an internet order, the merchant does not have your signature on the reciept. Without that they have NOTHING to stand on. (now don't take that as license to order a bunch of stuff and stiff them, that's just not nice). That is what will have the credit card company on your side and doing the hard stuff for you. If you didn't sign for it, the CC company can't legaly charge you if you dispute.
On a misrepresented item, that one will be rare when dealing with vendors. That's probally more of a used part type situation. With that you have alot of "buyer beware" to consider. Since digital cameras cost about the same price as a movie ticket, if a person can't send you pics of what you need to see, perhaps it's time to look elsewhere.
On a flat out failure to sent and item, the CC shines agian. Most likely the vendor has no sig on file nor can they produce any proof of shipping. Once agian, easy work for the CC company to fix you up.
Using these methods, you'll either get your stuff or not take a financial hit for no reason. You can lose time, but that's a risk that can't be helped.

Now, on to dealing with people on personal sales. Paypal is shakey at best with disputes. I've have 3 people fail to send me stuff I've used paypal for. Two of them paypal did thier own research and refuned me. You only have one month for file a claim with Paypal, so keep sharp. Now with paypal, they debit your credit card on file. I've never tried this, but I can't think of a reason that you couldn't dispute the charges on the CC itself. The way It looks is that Paypal doesn't mind being a middleman and keeping 6% from the seller, then they should be somewhat responsible for seeing that you get your stuff. That one's a grey area and I hope I never have to find out for sure. Personally I'm guessing that MBNA, Capitol One or any of the others would kinda snub thier nose at Paypal and would have no problem sticking them with a chargeback. (once again, no sig on file. see the pattern here?)
This brings up another fun money pit from hell... Ebay! Now with Ebay, you have 3 months (i think) to file a complaint with them. Paypal only gives you one month. Now if you win an auction and the seller waits 4 or 5 days to get you the payment info, then you take a couple days to send it via paypal........... By the time you figure out there's a problem, it's too late!! Be carefull and keep an eye on the date. Now that Ebay own's Paypal, that might have changed, I don't know.
In certian cases a CC is not an option. When i encounter that one, it's time to try and guess if it's worth the risk. When you send out cash, check, or a money order, you are sending out funds, you might get some product!!! If you have to use snail mail to send out funds, try and use a postal MO. I think the USPS will clean someone's clock if they don't hold up thier end and deposit a postal MO into thier account. Not to mention, interstate fraud and using the USPS to commit a crime, etc... I'm betting they have a dept of people there that really enjoy screwing with people that use the post office to defraud (and enjoy powertripping as well). Since they're a government agency, they can basically take license to make up the rules as they go along [sic].
If you ever see an ad for a dequick intercooler for $200 and the seller have 1 post under his belt and no digital camera...... move on!!!
If you want to buy some rocks with dirt on them and the seller has 10,000 posts, you stand better odds, but still know nothing untill you've got your farm fresh rock and are happy. If you're shopping for "How to pick up chicks at your sister-momma's wedding" and the author isn't from Dumbass W. Viagra, there's a good chance you won't be happy.
It sucks, but unfortunaly anything than best case scenario sucks when it comes to buying stuff sight unseen.
This is in no way a sure fire way to keep from getting ripped off. But it's what I've used and learned over the years and I've only been beat out of $28 in a Paypal problem (that's how I learned about the one month cut off).


This guide is not to be used as a flotation device and is packaged by volume, not weight. Kids get your parents permission before you use a CC to order explosives or female escorts. Void where prohibited by law.


Earl

[NCBuickGN]

Good info, Earl!

Also, NEVER EVER presume that someone is an honest human being simply because they are an "advertising vendor" on an Internet Message board.

In general, be aware there ARE liars & thieves "lurking" about, awaiting any/every opportunity to use your good-hearted trust to their advantage, & to your detriment.

[motorhead]

cheers to the Duke of Earl!

Can this be applied to pay porn sites...? I mean they keep saying the just turned 18, but I am not buying it. I think they are misrepresented, and can't be half that. wink

<small>[ July 31, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: mOtOrHeAd MiKe ]</small>

[Orlando_87GN]

The problem with this whole equation is the honest person holding the Merchant Account gets screwed anytime someone disputes a charge. I have encountered an individual through my years of web hosting that had no intentions of paying for services rendered and disputed the charge on his credit card. The banks have too much vested interest in their card holders so the merchants will eat it 10 out of 10 times. I understand what earl is saying but from another point of view, people know this and take advantage of it all the time. Sometimes this is why people don't accept credit cards because it IS a big liability to accept them. frown

[The Radius Kid]

Correct Mike,it's a two sided coin.
However,would it not be possible to nail them for credit card or mail fraud?

[rastaz]

FYI... I bought something on Ebay with Paypal and the item never arrived. Paypal was not able to recoup my money. Mastercard told me to take a hike too because I authourized the transaction. I argued with them and they kept telling me to deal with Paypal as they were the middleman. I guess I could have disputed that I had actually authorized the transaction and got my money back from MC that way. So much for being honest.. I now know better for next time.

PS If you ever dispute a Paypal charge on your credit card Paypal will cancel your account.

http://69.50.196.216/faqs.shtml

[earlbrown]

Orlando_87GN:
The problem with this whole equation is the honest person holding the Merchant Account gets screwed anytime someone disputes a charge</strong>

Correct Mike. I didn't mean for this to be a how-to guide for a potential thief. It is more of a "How not to get meased" guide for honest people. (so only honest people use that info!!)
When two honest people are handling a deal, there will be no problem whatsoever. If the buyers dishonest, he could possibly hose a vendor. And the the vendor's dishonest, I'm thinking "**** them".
In the past I've have a couple problems with motorcycle companys making an honest mistake and mailing me the wrong parts. When I get them on the phone, they just don't want to go through the trouble to help me. They would rather just take orders and make money than handle problems. After several calls and lost time, I started learning just how powerfull buyer protection can be. If I'd sent cash, I would most likely still be waiting on a windscreen for a bike I haven't raced in years .
From a vendors standpoint, I can see where credit cards are a pain. After all, you most likey don't have a signed contract allowing the debit. The CC company keeps a percentage of your sales (and it makes it harder to hide money for tax reasons )
But, like you said the CC people usually side with the cardholder. That can be as much of a weapon as a powerfull tool.

NCbuick, you're exactly right. But we're a tight knit circle. With anybody that's been around a while we know who delivers and who doesen't. If i expected a package from Jack Cotton or John Craig or the like, I wouldn't say one thing. It's probally just slow shipping or a minor hiccup. (and I'd probally already have a tracking # anyways).
If I have an order from Keith Mease, Bowling Green Customs or Zap's domestic companion sheeps, and there's a hiccup... that's way different.
If somebody new comes in selling stuff, it's back to buyer beware. But the established vendors have a track record, we know who delivers and who makes good. Hell I personally wouln't think twice about sending Mike cash for a mini-starter.

oh yeah, MotorheadMike. If you plot out a time line with the big bang on one end, and the big crunch on the other end...... then, yes, the tattoo'd up saggy 30YO's in pigtails did "just turn 18" (and you can't pay for porn with Paypal anymore poon


Earl

[NCBuickGN]

Earl,

I was a Buick Board newbie last year with around 3 months in the Community. Although I could have ordered the same items direct from a national supplier, my decision was to buy them from an advertising vendor on the Board. (Not this Board)

This was a $965.60 order for 4 wheels & 2 tires.
After 6-8 weeks, the 2 Nittos finally arrived, and NOTHING...(including any effort at any sort of refund/restitution) thereafter, & that's now over a year ago.

I did not access the archives to check for pre-existing problems, nor did I "know" anyone in the Community to ask what their history was. Instead, picture a trusting person in a new Community, eager to support a Community vendor...that was me.

Since then, I've learned of both PRIOR similar problems (dating back before a previous Board crash) as well as SUBSEQUENT similar problems with the same individual. I was not the "only" one, nor was it suddenly "situational".
==============================================
The hopefully obvious point in the above is: newbies do NOT know whose word is golden, or who is a sociopathic liar and/or thief. Thus, mistakenly thinking that being an advertising vendor is somehow a testament to their honesty or character is potentially VERY dangerous...and this is ESPECIALLY true if there is an atmosphere of some sort of biased presumptive protective immunity provided vendors...no matter "what", no matter how many times, no matter the time or $$ lost, irregardless of the hurtful repercussions of simple trust & newbie-enthusiasm proving foolish enough to be mocked.

Anyone thinking they are in a "safe" Community when dealing with anyone just because they are an advertising vendor is foolishly walking into an unlit alley.

=============================================

Earl, do bank debit cards (Visa/MC) carry the same consumer protections as do credit cards?

Thanks!

[earlbrown]

yes, debit cards have the same protection as a normal CC. Don't quote me on that though, I haven't read the fine print.
The law/policy (whichever) is new. Back in the old days debit cards were not protected. I had a good scare the very first time I used mine for mail order. (hence the semi-harsh tone of my post). I had ordered some fiberglass bumper fillers from Jay's GN and they showed up made out of 2 pieces of ABS plastic glued together per corner. Yes, the same thing VCR tapes are made out of. Just imagine painting concave plastic gloss black and pointing it at the sun! (some of you old timers might remember my product review that got lost in the first "crash" of many. Man, those things were crap!!)
When I called the bank back then, the agent told me that I had gave them access to my account and there was nothing I could do. Needless to say I was amazed. When i pointed out that I didn't get what I ordered, it didn't matter. I asked her "What if he charged me $10,000 for a $5 order? What would happen then?". Back then, the answer was that I'd be $10K light. Needless to say, we like my CC now

NCbuick, you just made me realize something. Way back in the day, when i first found TB.com. There was a rash of "great vendor" posts. You couldn't refresh the page without seeing how John Craig is the man with a turbo or Terry Houston makes bad ass pipes that fit like a glove, etc......
I'm not seeing as much of that stuff lately.

Did you ever get your wheels?


Earl

<small>[ July 31, 2003, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: earlbrown ]</small>

[earlbrown]

<small>[ July 31, 2003, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: earlbrown ]</small>