Tuning with Alky?

[FLR]

Okay, I figure I'd ask some questions before I lift a head on my GN. I bought the GN with the PAC on it (obviously), but I have no idea how to tune it. Its not knocking, but still running way out of tune. Stock LC2, 96K, with stock turbo/IC (ported)/DP & injectors. Running a NON-ALKY TT 5.6 chip.

Where do I start to tune this thing? Cant you turn the timing up with the alky, like a race gas chip? I'm asking 'cause I dont know.

Running 22psi currently with no detonation. 02s hovering around the 780- 800 range.


Educate me please.

[pacecarta]

to tune the razor PAC alky it will require reading which i see you can only do if its on you tube

see this thread
TurboBuick.Com

whern your done there go to votexbuick-etc.com and read all of it , nice article there on tuning

and like always there gnttype.org which you should have read all on there but i'm sure you havent

5.6 TT chip has 10* up-down adjustment of timing , and 20% fuel up down and can meet most needs to race , the biggest dif in race chip is the fuel will already be upped for the higher boost ,the timing turned up a little for the octane being run and the race chip might have the fast update code , i raced and went 10.41 on an old 5.2 tt non alky steet chip (burned before pac existed) spraying meth
for info tt chip try erics forum at turbotweak.com, there are instructions there too

[FLR]

Thanks Paulie. Its still ALOT to take in. Ive been out of the game for quite a while. The PAC wasnt as popular when I had the WH-1 as it is today. I just want to set it all up and pretty much not have to worry about it. Wishfull thinking probably. I read the TB.com thread and the Vortex section on tuning, still way over my head. I'll probably read it 20 more times before it makes any sense. My brain is fried from going crazy everyday.


I still need to get the car where it needs to be, but its a start. I dont think my GN runs that bad for being so far out of tune.

[mjdwyer23]

How is it out of tune?

[Ttype83]

chip has the base setting on the sticker, you're going to have to look. The Alky chip I think starts at 24degs...but I have the older chip.

[pacecarta]

TT alky if running 93octane comes base at 23/20 timing , only add more as you tune and are certain its not knocking
ive run 27/24 timing in the 87 (all i could get from that chip) and usually run 26/25 in the 86, but for you start at 23/20 , tune with fuel for no knock as you increase boost, dont be bound to a number on SM for o2 as those suck but for you Id suggest 800s atleast , best way to tune is AFR and watch egt , then once you reach your target boost if desired you can lean it out using highest mph as your optimum setting and watching egt , then after all that if desired start adding timing keeping a very careful watch for knock at shifts and for any creeping up through the gears all the while your tuning (get a logger before playing with timing)

[FLR]

Originally Posted by mjdwyer23

How is it out of tune?

Well, for starters; its got a 93 NON-ALKY chip, burned for 15-17psi with appropriate fuel/timing for that boost. Alky chips do have higher base timing as Ive read.

Originally Posted by Ttype83

chip has the base setting on the sticker, you're going to have to look. The Alky chip I think starts at 24degs...but I have the older chip.

Jim, I know its a TT 5.6 chip. For stock everything. I thinks it 20° 1st/2nd & 18° 3rd/4th. Not sure. Ive got new injectors so a new chip is needed.

Originally Posted by pacecarta

TT alky if running 93octane comes base at 23/20 timing , only add more as you tune and are certaion its not knocking
ive run 27/24 timing in the 87 (all i could get from that chip) and usually run 26/25 in the 86, but for you start at 23/20 , tune with fuel for no knock as you increase boost, dont be bound to a number on SM for o2 as those suck but for you Id suggest 800s atleast , best way to tune is AFR and watch egt , then once you reach your target boost if desired you can lean it out using highest mph as your optimum setting and watching egt , then after all that if desired start adding timing keeping a very careful watch for knock at shifts and for any creeping up through the gears all the while your tuning (get a logger before playing with timing)

Im not gonna mess with nothing untill the car is mechanically ready and I have a logger of some sort. I just sold my TL on TB.Kom.

[GrndNatnl]

The car is fine. The O2's are right where they should be. A couple more pounds of boost would be in order, but he's having a tough time hanging the wastegate actuator rod back on the puck arm when its threaded too far in. (Time for new boost controller, ie: RJC)

Aside from that, the car is "in-tune" just fine for that particular chip.

[murphster]

Best tuning tool I ever got was DirectScan. I still have a gauges and a scanmaster for daily driving, but its much easier to understand whats going on when you play back the data on a logger like DirectScan.

In all likelihood your injectors are just running max all the time. So by pumping up the boost to 22psi and adding alky you are probably have a tune close to where it should be. So just by luck and your combo your tune is already close. If you took away boost you'd be rich and if you added boost or upgraded the turbo or something you'd lean out if you're not careful.

My 87 Regal ran 12.7 with a stock turbo, 30lb injectors, and alky at 22psi. The only difference is that I have a TT alky chip which adds a little timing, injectors are still maxed the whole way. On smaller turbos I haven't noticed much benefit from higher timing with alky anyway.

When you upgrade the injectors, tuning will become more difficult. Instead of just playing with the alky to prevent knock, you'll have to adjust the fuel settings since the injectors should be capable of running more fuel then you'll need.

The key to finding the right tune is to watch the data carefully. Going over Directscan recordings to determine whether the car is knocking because its lean vs not having enough alky. The car could also be rich and need fuel taken out but need alky to prevent knock. Usually you don't run more alky than you need because there isn't much benefit to running alky at 100% all the time, but it will run out sooner and we all like our alky/meth to last as long as possible.

As far as reading the alky tuning thread 20 times, that sounds about right. It takes a lot of reading and going over data to understand it all. Paul knows a lot about tuning, for sure. But I also know he reads all he can and go over his data and recordings many times. And even after he changes his tune based on his data, he's still careful on his next run to make sure there's no knock or something else going on in case the car doesn't like the adjustment. A good tune takes time and learning your car along with having good feedback such as data loggers and timeslips. Living close to a track doesn't hurt either.

[Ttype83]

Well you better get to tuning and adding those parts...

just got a part the other day, hope to have it in by BOP nov 2,3rd

[FLR]

Originally Posted by Ttype83

Well you better get to tuning and adding those parts...

just got a part the other day, hope to have it in by BOP nov 2,3rd

Ohhhh. Thats pretty right there. GNX spec I assume? Looks stretched to me... Good luck with it. I put a Bronsonian Motorsports ported stocker in my GN...

Im feeling brave today and think Im gonna mess with the car today. Probably do the plenum and PP and maybe plugs and wires and a new 02. I dont wanna mess with the injectors or downpipe by myself. That'll have to wait.

I'll get there. I also got me a Hurst Roll Control too. Im DEFINITELY not gonna mess with that...

[Ttype83]

I'll have 3 days to get it ready for the races when I get back..I think I need a neck down for the turbo to IC hose. Going to measure it in a minute..
Told it was a mease 17 row, don't know if he used GNX IC's or not to stretch
Hoping to push the car into the low 12's on the stock turbo with it

[pacecarta]

Originally Posted by Ttype83

Hoping to push the car into the low 12's on the stock turbo with it

should have spent the money elsewhere, with alky the extra cooling is just not as important to the end performance , you should be able to hit low ,low 12s on the stock turbo with just a duttneck

the stretch offers straight gas guys the abilityto squeeze a little more boost before seeing knock due to reduced outlet temps , with alky (which you have) the outlet temps are quickly brought back to ambient so you can push the stock turbo well over 25psi without knock on pump gas with the stock
spaying alky the CAS v4 21 row did absolutely nothing for me with stock or ta49 turbo over the stock dutt I/C.

heres a good thread
TurboBuick.Com



oh and looking at the pic the 2' to 2 1/2' step hose is right there in the box

[Ttype83]

Originally Posted by pacecarta

should have spent the money elsewhere, with alky the extra cooling is just not as important to the end performance , you should be able to hit low ,low 12s on the stock turbo with just a duttneck

the stretch offers straight gas guys the extra fins help to reduce outlet temps allowing you to squeeze a little more boost before seeing knock , with alky (which you have) you can push the stock turbo well over 25psi without knock on pump gas with the stock i/c
spaying alky the CAS v4 21 row did absolutely nothing for me with stock or ta49 turbo over the stock dutt I/C.

heres a good thread
TurboBuick.Com



oh and looking at the pic the 2' to 2 1/2' step hose is right there in the box

Thanks for the link and info...I saw the hose, but it's missing a couple of chunks and can't remember the guys combo even tho I helped install the engine a couple of years ago.... for the price...I couldn't beat it...very,very cheap...guys like a son to me, he upgraded to a front mount and I got the leftover part.