Water injection and some thoughts...

[Freddie's Regal]

Doing a lot of reading on water injection. From what I've read here on this forum most use it for racing. A mix of methanol and water, (windshield washer fluid), and some spraying from various locations before the impeller or, (as in some material I've read), straight into the intake.

I am thinking along the lines of a permanent injection of water vapor controlled by load conditions because I don't do racing.

The idea of spraying methanol/water into the intake is based on fear of ruining the turbo impeller. I wonder about this because if that were truly the case the normal gas fuel mixture smashing onto the impeller would inflict just as much damage. Obviously, this is not the case.

That whole concept really has more to do with the methanol. According to what I've read alcohol products will damage aluminum over a course of time. Ethanol running vehicles have nickel plated aluminum parts that are not affected by ethanol.

That is why it is difficult to convert non-ethanol running vehicles. Not that they won't run on ethanol, just that eventually over an extended period of use the ethanol will erode aluminum fuel tanks and various internal engine components made from aluminum, (pistons, intake manifold, turbo impeller, fuel pumps, and carburetors are among a few).

Not to mention the effects of alcohol on rubber parts. Viton and other synthetic rubbers used on modern FFV vehicles are not affected by alcohol. Sadly, there is no market that uses synthetic rubber on the older parts used on our classic Buick's, (none that I know of and this includes internal carb parts).

The vapor idea is controlled by vacuum. There is no better way short of sophisticated electronics to determine load than manifold vacuum. The trick is controlling the injection amount.

One site I looked at used an electronic device to control the injection amount. The vapor was made by having the water run through a copper tube coiled tightly around the exhaust manifold. This steamed the frothy water and shot it into the manifold as a vapor. Bye bye spark knock! This idea was for a carbed N/A engine. I don't see why it shouldn't work for a carbed turbo.

I think with the high cost of gas this old technology is finally getting some real attention. The benefits are incredible. Our old Buicks are great for testing these ideas. Power and better mileage along with extended longevity are hard to beat for such inexpensive ideas.

And if you like to race, well up the timing to a ridiculous point and pound that carbed turbo. Knock will certainly not be a problem. Plain distilled water will work just as well as methanol.

As for N/A Buicks, same technology works!

[Ttype83]

I use a mix of 1/3 alky and 2/3 distilled water for the 83. I've been thinking of moving the nozzle to the compressor housing (there is a block off plug there) and going to a straight alky. The 86 is on straight meth

[b4black]

Some thoughts from a fuel engineer......

Street driving is no different than racing. High boost is high boost. And you only need alcohol injection at high boost.

If you inject pre-carb, then the alcohol has to go thru the venturi and will be vaporized like the gasoline. Just don't let it puddle under the carb by turning off the plenum heat or spray way too much. It's the water droplets that can erode the impeller.

I worry the spraying after the turbo will result in uneven distribution to the cylinders.

Methanol is much more corrosive that ethanol.

Now that 10% ethanol is prevalent in Florida, you will begin to see E85 pumps and have a cheap source of ethanol.


One of the big advantages to water or alcohol inejction is the absroption of heat when the going from liquid to vapor. Starting with a vapor would take away this benefit. (The vapor will still supress knock, just not nearly as effectively).

[Freddie's Regal]

Back in 1972 a patent was entered were water injection was introduced to the carb, (pre-venturi), via a port. These were the days were OPEC began hitting us hard along with serious ecological issues entertained by Washington D.C., (early emissions standards).

Well it was never used by Detroit as far as I know. But the idea still stands. With the high prices of premium fuel, I'd like to use 87 octane but the knock rattle is killing me along with my engine. Water injection seems to be the cure for it.

The pdf docs I uploaded are the patents and write-up. Carbed Buicks, (turbo and N/A's), apply.

..A system for injecting water into the boost venturi of a carburetor for ultimate introduction into the combustion chambers of a gasoline type combustion engine. The water flow is metered through an orifice in the water supply conduit at a predetermined ratio to the fuel and is injected into the constricted passage of the boost venturi at a level corresponding to the level of fuel injection.

[Freddie's Regal]

This idea allows for permanant water injection and the throttle controls the flow rate. Now the timing can be advanced up to 12 degrees and I can use cheap 87 octane gas!

I'd like to try this experimant. I need to find me a junked donar carb so I can modify the boost venturi. This is so simple and makes so much sense.

[usetaboost]

How much more is your premium fuel? 93 is only 20c more than cheapo 89.

[Freddie's Regal]

Mostly I'm referring to 87 Octane not 89. And its about 25 cents less around my way. I've used 87 octane and the engine diesels when I shut it off and knocks like a baby's rattle when I drive. (Although I got rid of the knock by strictly using premium 93 octane gas and dropping it down to 6-degrees BTDC).

One thing that I learned the hard way is that if one bores out the engine like I did and you don't install thicker head gaskets, detonation will be a constant companion regardless of ESC. There is no escaping using premium gas once you bore out the block and even with premium you'll still have to drop the timing.

It's not bad cause one saves gas but you can't ram the throttle and expect to go anywhere. It's peppier than an N/A but doesn't live up to the turbo myth.

Looking over those patents I figured out a way to make water injection work with my Q-Jet without spraying or those fancy expensive pumps. If I'm successful with my radical carb design I will share my experiment. If it works, I'll be able to use 87 octane and pull much more than the OEM 15-degrees BTDC.

[b4black]

I don't see how boring the block will lead to knock. The compression ratio should still be the same.

If you can find a way to run 87 without knock, then up the boost and run 93. The goal is to go faster right? Even with a 25 cent differance, premium is a bargin over regular. Your not going to find a cheaper way to get performance than 6 units of octane for a quarter.

I bet for now, a lot of the regular and premium in your area is higher octane than advertised due to the recent ethanol rollout. Eventually is will return to the posted figures, but don't be surprised if some station's fuel knocks much less than others.

[Freddie's Regal]

Originally Posted by b4black

...I don't see how boring the block will lead to knock. The compression ratio should still be the same.....

Higher compression leads to detonation. These engines were set up for 8.0 compression ratio stock. Aftermarket high-compression pistons increase chances of detonation.

I'm up at 9.50-10.00 now not to mention all the port work.
Boring results in the same as milling the heads. Compression will rise. That is why head gasket shims are made.

I never had knock until I had the engine rebuilt. Higher compression pistons may have contributed.

Shimming the head gaskets helps. (I missed this one).

Good write-up on the fuel Rich....did you get my PM?

[usetaboost]

So is this turbo setup on your N/A motor that you built with the high compression? If it is no wonder you're having trouble. If so I'd go find a good running 6 to drop in with your cam and heads

[Freddie's Regal]

Originally Posted by usetaboost

So is this turbo setup on your N/A motor that you built with the high compression?:

Yep.

Originally Posted by usetaboost

If it is no wonder you're having trouble. If so I'd go find a good running 6 to drop in with your cam and heads

Too much labor. When it was done four years ago I could never figure out why it knocked on OEM specs. As an N/A I ran it at 8-BTDC with colder plugs and it worked fine under no load. Now that I converted to turbo it's even more pronounced. Retarding it down to 6-BTDC works for now.

[tony moore]

as Rich said a bigger bore wont make more compression. now the pistons you use with the bigger bore might. if i were you i would take it apert and install a thicker head gasket. i think felpro makes a thick one.

[usetaboost]

Don't quote me but I thought I saw that anything close to 9:1 is gonna be a PITA. I'm sure even the FI cars with high compression would be a nightmare to tune in. If he even could do a headgasket swap, how thick of a gasket would he need? But again, by the time he does that just as well swap shortblocks and do what I said to do. Wouldn't even have to be turbo motor, just even an old n/a would probably be better than fighting that detonation. Only other suggestion I have is MAYBE adding more fuel, but most likely isn't the problem. lower the boost down to about 5 or 6, or get it over with and build an alky setup. Just as well, you'll probably wanna end up doing it anyway. If you don't wanna swap motors pay for the premium and plumb an alky setup, try to tune it and hopefully enjoy all the labor

[Freddie's Regal]

Originally Posted by tony moore

...a bigger bore wont make more compression. Now the pistons you use with the bigger bore might. If i were you I would take it apart and install a thicker head gasket....

Yeah that's were I'm getting at. Don't know what thickness though. I'll figure that out some other time. But I'm running O.K. at 5-BTDC. I'm not going to take this engine apart for now. As far as the block, why remove? My block is fine. The solution is to run at lower timing. It's just a temp fix anyway. But I agree with usetaboost, fine tuning is aggravating me.

I killed my ECM today trying to fine tune. Probably shorted something. No biggie, I'll just back-date the EST with a 80's HEI. (I knew eventually I was going to kill it. Might as well. Getting ECM parts for a one year run is almost impossible now). And please no update the wiring harness suggestions. I'll work with what I've got.

[tony moore]

freddie i was thinking about this yesterday. if i were you when you take the heads off i would ''unshroud'' port around the valves. just scribe it with a new headgasket then grind out to it.then grind out any casting marks in the combustion chamber and hit it with a course sandpaper roll.don't polish it. this would be a good way to get rid of some compression and make a little power. if you can set up a gear you can handle that! HTH