700 rwhp=t78 at 32psi 92 octane! (methanol thread)

VxTurboxV · 12-15-2002, 03:02 AM

I know this isn't a TB but it's still amazing and I'm sure it could be applied to the 3.8T. Tell me what U all think.

THIS IS THE CAR HE IS RUNNING...

derek_obanion@yahoo.com
The Prowler: 1994 Supra, blk/blk, 6spd, Methanol injected, LS1 Coil ignition, AEM EMS, Greddy T78, ADFX Racing FMIC, Custom Intake Manifold, Greddy Type R BOV, WOTM Clutch, Greddy SP Exhaust, OZ Wheels
Methanol injection kits, LS1 coil wiring harnesses, custom intake manifolds for sale.

Methanol gives:

Maximum power (supercooling plus higher specific energy than gasoline)
Fuel enrichment (stock injectors to 700RWHP)
Knock control (32psi on 92 pump gas)
Engine cleaning
Increased turbo spool up (200-500RPM faster)

Methanol rules, but ONLY if you have the means to correct your gasoline flow in conjuction with the methanol flow. Without that, it doesn't work well. i.e. Haltech or other stand alone system.

This thread has been brought to my attention so here I am to fill in any questions about water/alcohol injection.

I have run as much as 32psi on the STOCK injectors, on PUMP gas through a T78, with ZERO knock. I get intake temps below 20F on a 80F day. This is with pure methanol, using a LOT of flow. Probably 2-3x as much as any regular alcohol injection system out there. I can do this because I have a AEM EMS, which I use to reduce gasoline delivery as the methanol comes on.

Yes, water absorbs more heat per gallon when vaporized than any alocohol. HOWEVER, it has to vaporize to get this cooling. Throw a cup of water on the ground, and throw a cup of methanol on the ground next to it. The methanol will be gone 20x faster than the water. Same thing in the motor. Water doesn't vaporize very well, especially if you are already intercooled and the air isn't very hot. On a non-IC car, you will get a much greater temp drop from water than a IC car, because it's hitting much hotter air. But on a MKIV with a big front mount, the temps are near ambient anyway. Water won't get much of a drop. Methanol will cool you down to insane temps (I call it Supercooling), which gives big HP gains. Like I said 20F observed, with my temp sensor lagging behind the actual temps. I'd bet 0F at the inlet valve. Water also takes up space in the air charge, methanol does but it's a fuel, it's not wasted space like water.

Methanol is a mild oxygenate. That's not to say "it's like nitrous." It has a little more oxygen, and therefore can make about 10-15% more power with a given mass air flow than gasoline. Add another 10-20% power from Supercooling and you start to see the advantages.

It won't corrode your motor, that's BS. It is a dry fuel, and should be used with a lube, just like any fuel (gasoline has lubes added to it). A 1/2oz of Klotz Uplon lube per gallon of methanol takes care of this. It's a special lube just for methanol. If you have significant blow-by, you should check your oil for moisture or funny smells on a regular basis. I'm actually hooking up a LT1 emmisions air pump I picked up to act as a crankcase evac pump. It will suck air out of the crankcase all the time, pulling a little vacumn (increasing HP a touch from less air resistance on the crank and rods), and also sucking any blow by gases right out before they deposit in the oil. I got one of these for $15.

Methanol will swell certain types of polymers, and will corrode aluminum if used in the delivery system. When the fine fog and vaporized mixture of methanol and air zips through the motor for short periods of time, that's a COMPLETELY different story than if you used aluminum feed lines that sat with liquid methanol in them for days on end.

On my system, I use a combination of parts that is not damaged by pure methanol. I tore the whole system down a little while ago to check it out, pump, lines, fittings, were all as new inside. I had to change check valves, which I have upgraded to a different seal type, which is untouched by methanol. I have a seal sitting in a jar of methanol for a week now and it looks brand new.

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask. I have been playing extensively with the stuff and it's simply amazing. In short it's like a $2500 fuel system, and running 116 octane race gas all the time. I won't claim it for sure until I dyno, but I should be making 10-20% more power than if I was running race fuel, and had the injectors to do it, from the higher output of methanol and the Supercooling.

These kits are $300 shipped complete, with full tuning instructions and support. Like stated above, you need a AEM EMS to really make it work. I have been asked enough that I might be able to make a lower flowing system for people with the stock ECU, but you won't be able to approach the performance of the AEM + full system combo.

------------------
1987 GN 109k
Mods: spring cleaning, Removed stock exhaust open DP (Stock) and 340 walbro. Homemade alky injection. Thrasher 92 chip, Rest of car is bone stock.

Steve Wood · 12-15-2002, 10:24 AM

caveat emptor

salvageV6 · 12-15-2002, 10:58 AM

Ask Steve Yaklin about methanol. He's been running it for a while.

Make sure you get his chip too. http://www.turbobuicks.com/ubb/smile.gif

Wonder if it comes with a double pumper setup? http://www.turbobuicks.com/ubb/wink.gif

Turbo_Tim · 12-15-2002, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Wood:
caveat emptor

Let the buyer beware? http://www.turbobuicks.com/ubb/wink.gif

Well AnnArkey's postings have shown him to have gained a lot of knowledge in this area. He has been posting in the alchy section of the 'other' board for some time.

From nozzles, to 'O' rings, it is all there.

VxTurboxV · 12-16-2002, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Wood:
caveat emptor

I'm not saying anyone should try making 700hp on a stock bottom end GN. But even 450-500 would be something to shoot for for $300. I'm sure if you gave AnnArkey a call he would advise you as to what was "safe" methanol inj kit.

------------------
1987 GN 109k
Mods: spring cleaning, Removed stock exhaust open DP (Stock) and 340 walbro. Homemade alky injection. Thrasher 92 chip, Rest of car is bone stock.

[This message has been edited by VxTurboxV (edited December 16, 2002).]

Steve Wood · 12-16-2002, 06:51 PM

I have alcohol kits on two of my three cars...It is very common and most of what that guy claims to know came from his Buick experiences.

If you look around here, you will find that alcohol is on quite a few cars. It is old hat.

It works well. Propane is the latest buzz.

forzfed · 12-16-2002, 10:28 PM

Yeah, what Steve said! http://www.turbobuicks.com/ubb/smile.gif When I first bought my 85 T-Type and the sun shined on the dash, you could see the one light that said power injection. I always wondered what the hell did power injection mean. And of course after reading everything I could find about Turbo Regals I discovered Buick had designed a water injection from factory and are cars even have codes for them. This is where Stevie Y took his knowledge of this and developed his methanol/water injection system. Cool stuff the methanol injection, but like Steve W says, "Propane!"

They should do an add for propane injection and use Eric Clapton's song Cocaine and replace the lyrics of cocaine with Propane! http://www.turbobuicks.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Zap · 12-17-2002, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by forzfed:
They should do an add for propane injection and use Eric Clapton's song Cocaine and replace the lyrics of cocaine with Propane! http://www.turbobuicks.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

They most certainly should not!

forzfed · 12-17-2002, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zap:

They most certainly should not!

No, but they should! http://www.turbobuicks.com/ubb/wink.gif

salvageV6 · 12-17-2002, 01:03 PM

"If your girlfriend is hot.

But your fingers are not.

Propane." http://www.turbobuicks.com/ubb/wink.gif

There already is a whole song about it, that's just one verse.

Steve Wood · 12-17-2002, 08:17 PM

If you want some solid information on alcohol...

Here are some links:
http://www.angelfire.com/super/buickgn/Alcohol.htm

Note the links at the end of that one.
http://www.geocities.com/rad87gn/tech/alcohol.html
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~steppa/page6.html Steve Hill and Denis Kefallinos have probably pushed the envelope further than anyone with their system.

Jay Carter was the orginal guy, maybe ten years ago that promoted the use of Alky. Steve Yaklin who works at GM has been pumping methanol for many years and his car has been written up in the mags. If you go to http://members.tripod.com/turboracer/maxeffort/ and http://members.tripod.com/turboracer/kits/ you will find that combining the chip fuel profile with the alky set up is nothing new.

Steve Monroe, Steve Hill, Steve Yaklin, Steve Chlupsa, Jay Carter, Joe Tripodi, Bob Avellar are the gods of alcohol.

Many of us run the SMC kits from Steve Chlupsa as they are plug and play and easy to set up due to the electronic controller that he provides.

If you want to know the straight story on the chemistry of methanol/alcohol, go to the gnttype.org mailing list archives and do a search on Carl Ijames and alcohol. Carl is a real chemist and you will find some interesting reading if you are serious about learning something. There was also some interesting info on the other board by Don Wang who converted his car to run straight methanol at the track.

BTW, a Buick in good condition is good for about 525-530 hp which will take you into the upper tens. Add a girdle, and you can approach 600 hp. Beyond that, the wise go to a Stage engine. The new aluminum block from TA Performance is being projected way over a 1000 hp with some talking of 2000+ potential. Billet crank and good rods, of course.

ronbros · 06-28-2005, 08:06 PM

you guys seem to be bias to other forms of racers, let me see? A GM 4 cyl.ecotec just did a 6.76 at 204 mph, NHRA weight legal. I have heard that them damn supras bottom end can handle 1000 HP. but buick was the 1st to introduce serious electronics, problem electronics dont stop getting better all the time. RON

Steve Wood · 06-30-2005, 11:49 AM

Took you three years to come up with that pearl?

VxTurboxV · 06-30-2005, 07:10 PM

Hey that was like one of my first posts! Rock on! I had no idea what I was getting my self into back then!

Razor · 06-30-2005, 11:24 PM

Maybe Elvis can be found..

12-15-2002, 03:02 AM	#1 (permalink)
VxTurboxV Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 1,711	700 rwhp=t78 at 32psi 92 octane! (methanol thread) I know this isn't a TB but it's still amazing and I'm sure it could be applied to the 3.8T. Tell me what U all think. THIS IS THE CAR HE IS RUNNING... derek_obanion@yahoo.com The Prowler: 1994 Supra, blk/blk, 6spd, Methanol injected, LS1 Coil ignition, AEM EMS, Greddy T78, ADFX Racing FMIC, Custom Intake Manifold, Greddy Type R BOV, WOTM Clutch, Greddy SP Exhaust, OZ Wheels Methanol injection kits, LS1 coil wiring harnesses, custom intake manifolds for sale. Methanol gives: Maximum power (supercooling plus higher specific energy than gasoline) Fuel enrichment (stock injectors to 700RWHP) Knock control (32psi on 92 pump gas) Engine cleaning Increased turbo spool up (200-500RPM faster) Methanol rules, but ONLY if you have the means to correct your gasoline flow in conjuction with the methanol flow. Without that, it doesn't work well. i.e. Haltech or other stand alone system. This thread has been brought to my attention so here I am to fill in any questions about water/alcohol injection. I have run as much as 32psi on the STOCK injectors, on PUMP gas through a T78, with ZERO knock. I get intake temps below 20F on a 80F day. This is with pure methanol, using a LOT of flow. Probably 2-3x as much as any regular alcohol injection system out there. I can do this because I have a AEM EMS, which I use to reduce gasoline delivery as the methanol comes on. Yes, water absorbs more heat per gallon when vaporized than any alocohol. HOWEVER, it has to vaporize to get this cooling. Throw a cup of water on the ground, and throw a cup of methanol on the ground next to it. The methanol will be gone 20x faster than the water. Same thing in the motor. Water doesn't vaporize very well, especially if you are already intercooled and the air isn't very hot. On a non-IC car, you will get a much greater temp drop from water than a IC car, because it's hitting much hotter air. But on a MKIV with a big front mount, the temps are near ambient anyway. Water won't get much of a drop. Methanol will cool you down to insane temps (I call it Supercooling), which gives big HP gains. Like I said 20F observed, with my temp sensor lagging behind the actual temps. I'd bet 0F at the inlet valve. Water also takes up space in the air charge, methanol does but it's a fuel, it's not wasted space like water. Methanol is a mild oxygenate. That's not to say "it's like nitrous." It has a little more oxygen, and therefore can make about 10-15% more power with a given mass air flow than gasoline. Add another 10-20% power from Supercooling and you start to see the advantages. It won't corrode your motor, that's BS. It is a dry fuel, and should be used with a lube, just like any fuel (gasoline has lubes added to it). A 1/2oz of Klotz Uplon lube per gallon of methanol takes care of this. It's a special lube just for methanol. If you have significant blow-by, you should check your oil for moisture or funny smells on a regular basis. I'm actually hooking up a LT1 emmisions air pump I picked up to act as a crankcase evac pump. It will suck air out of the crankcase all the time, pulling a little vacumn (increasing HP a touch from less air resistance on the crank and rods), and also sucking any blow by gases right out before they deposit in the oil. I got one of these for $15. Methanol will swell certain types of polymers, and will corrode aluminum if used in the delivery system. When the fine fog and vaporized mixture of methanol and air zips through the motor for short periods of time, that's a COMPLETELY different story than if you used aluminum feed lines that sat with liquid methanol in them for days on end. On my system, I use a combination of parts that is not damaged by pure methanol. I tore the whole system down a little while ago to check it out, pump, lines, fittings, were all as new inside. I had to change check valves, which I have upgraded to a different seal type, which is untouched by methanol. I have a seal sitting in a jar of methanol for a week now and it looks brand new. If you have any further questions, feel free to ask. I have been playing extensively with the stuff and it's simply amazing. In short it's like a $2500 fuel system, and running 116 octane race gas all the time. I won't claim it for sure until I dyno, but I should be making 10-20% more power than if I was running race fuel, and had the injectors to do it, from the higher output of methanol and the Supercooling. These kits are $300 shipped complete, with full tuning instructions and support. Like stated above, you need a AEM EMS to really make it work. I have been asked enough that I might be able to make a lower flowing system for people with the stock ECU, but you won't be able to approach the performance of the AEM + full system combo. ------------------ 1987 GN 109k Mods: spring cleaning, Removed stock exhaust open DP (Stock) and 340 walbro. Homemade alky injection. Thrasher 92 chip, Rest of car is bone stock. __________________ 86 Rx-7 GXL Hybrid 86 Grand National motor and trans. TRW pistons, Webber ported IRONS, Extender chip,Translator plus,Te-45a, Vig.Torque Conv.(3500), Trans Cooler, 55lb inj's, 10mm Race Wires, Adj. FP Regulator,RJC PP ,FMIC 18x32 spearco bar&plate, Custom 3 inch mandrel DP, postons X-over pipe. deltagate WG, 3.40 rear, WB 02 255 60 MT Progressive alky, 1 m15 nozzle. Best E.T. 10.65 Best MPH 131.4 Still tuning.

12-15-2002, 10:24 AM	#2 (permalink)
Steve Wood An American American Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: East of Eden, Texas Posts: 36,899	caveat emptor __________________ ------------------ 'A government that is big enough to give you everything you want, is also big enough to take away everything you have.' - Thomas Jefferson I think one should worry more when people are lining up to get out of a country rather than into it. If they're sneaking in, we must be doing something right. The Chronicles of Zap, from the early 21st century www.vortexbuicks-etc.com

12-15-2002, 10:58 AM	#3 (permalink)
salvageV6 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Connecticut, USA Posts: 6,406	Ask Steve Yaklin about methanol. He's been running it for a while. Make sure you get his chip too. http://www.turbobuicks.com/ubb/smile.gif Wonder if it comes with a double pumper setup? http://www.turbobuicks.com/ubb/wink.gif __________________ WE4, 155K, Daily Driver, DBLBBGT70, 55lb.Inj., Pedophile DP, hollow cat.,Schertz Hi-Pro and 3200Protorque, Postons Headers, 2 1/2"SS Ultraflows and pipes, Ex.Ext. alky chip, EGT/Bilsteins, Boxed Cont. arms/Airbags/snubber,Blizzak snows, Nittos 275/60DR, 307, adj.reg./ SMC alky dual, 9 gauges,scamaster and D.Scan,BSTC, translator and 31/2"MAF, V4 inter. DYNO. TESTED!!! 11.93 @ 113.7 GN loaded, car #2. 115K miles. Accufab reg.,Scanmaster, Reds 100 chip, Mease downpipe, Mease 15row stretch IC, hollow cat., ATR ss. 3"crossflow, SMC alky., J.J. 62mm.T.B., RJC power plate, Bilsteins, Moog springs, HR Parts mount and rear arms, Nittos. "Some Cars Like Lots Of Fuel Pressure and Some Cars Are On Blocks." 12.4 @ 111

12-16-2002, 06:51 PM	#6 (permalink)
Steve Wood An American American Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: East of Eden, Texas Posts: 36,899	I have alcohol kits on two of my three cars...It is very common and most of what that guy claims to know came from his Buick experiences. If you look around here, you will find that alcohol is on quite a few cars. It is old hat. It works well. Propane is the latest buzz. __________________ ------------------ 'A government that is big enough to give you everything you want, is also big enough to take away everything you have.' - Thomas Jefferson I think one should worry more when people are lining up to get out of a country rather than into it. If they're sneaking in, we must be doing something right. The Chronicles of Zap, from the early 21st century www.vortexbuicks-etc.com

12-17-2002, 01:03 PM	#10 (permalink)
salvageV6 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Connecticut, USA Posts: 6,406	"If your girlfriend is hot. But your fingers are not. Propane." http://www.turbobuicks.com/ubb/wink.gif There already is a whole song about it, that's just one verse. __________________ WE4, 155K, Daily Driver, DBLBBGT70, 55lb.Inj., Pedophile DP, hollow cat.,Schertz Hi-Pro and 3200Protorque, Postons Headers, 2 1/2"SS Ultraflows and pipes, Ex.Ext. alky chip, EGT/Bilsteins, Boxed Cont. arms/Airbags/snubber,Blizzak snows, Nittos 275/60DR, 307, adj.reg./ SMC alky dual, 9 gauges,scamaster and D.Scan,BSTC, translator and 31/2"MAF, V4 inter. DYNO. TESTED!!! 11.93 @ 113.7 GN loaded, car #2. 115K miles. Accufab reg.,Scanmaster, Reds 100 chip, Mease downpipe, Mease 15row stretch IC, hollow cat., ATR ss. 3"crossflow, SMC alky., J.J. 62mm.T.B., RJC power plate, Bilsteins, Moog springs, HR Parts mount and rear arms, Nittos. "Some Cars Like Lots Of Fuel Pressure and Some Cars Are On Blocks." 12.4 @ 111

12-16-2002, 10:28 PM	#7 (permalink)
forzfed Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Winterpeg Posts: 5,567	Yeah, what Steve said! http://www.turbobuicks.com/ubb/smile.gif When I first bought my 85 T-Type and the sun shined on the dash, you could see the one light that said power injection. I always wondered what the hell did power injection mean. And of course after reading everything I could find about Turbo Regals I discovered Buick had designed a water injection from factory and are cars even have codes for them. This is where Stevie Y took his knowledge of this and developed his methanol/water injection system. Cool stuff the methanol injection, but like Steve W says, "Propane!" They should do an add for propane injection and use Eric Clapton's song Cocaine and replace the lyrics of cocaine with Propane! http://www.turbobuicks.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

12-17-2002, 08:17 PM	#11 (permalink)
Steve Wood An American American Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: East of Eden, Texas Posts: 36,899	If you want some solid information on alcohol... Here are some links: http://www.angelfire.com/super/buickgn/Alcohol.htm Note the links at the end of that one. http://www.geocities.com/rad87gn/tech/alcohol.html http://members.bellatlantic.net/~steppa/page6.html Steve Hill and Denis Kefallinos have probably pushed the envelope further than anyone with their system. Jay Carter was the orginal guy, maybe ten years ago that promoted the use of Alky. Steve Yaklin who works at GM has been pumping methanol for many years and his car has been written up in the mags. If you go to http://members.tripod.com/turboracer/maxeffort/ and http://members.tripod.com/turboracer/kits/ you will find that combining the chip fuel profile with the alky set up is nothing new. Steve Monroe, Steve Hill, Steve Yaklin, Steve Chlupsa, Jay Carter, Joe Tripodi, Bob Avellar are the gods of alcohol. Many of us run the SMC kits from Steve Chlupsa as they are plug and play and easy to set up due to the electronic controller that he provides. If you want to know the straight story on the chemistry of methanol/alcohol, go to the gnttype.org mailing list archives and do a search on Carl Ijames and alcohol. Carl is a real chemist and you will find some interesting reading if you are serious about learning something. There was also some interesting info on the other board by Don Wang who converted his car to run straight methanol at the track. BTW, a Buick in good condition is good for about 525-530 hp which will take you into the upper tens. Add a girdle, and you can approach 600 hp. Beyond that, the wise go to a Stage engine. The new aluminum block from TA Performance is being projected way over a 1000 hp with some talking of 2000+ potential. Billet crank and good rods, of course. __________________ ------------------ 'A government that is big enough to give you everything you want, is also big enough to take away everything you have.' - Thomas Jefferson I think one should worry more when people are lining up to get out of a country rather than into it. If they're sneaking in, we must be doing something right. The Chronicles of Zap, from the early 21st century www.vortexbuicks-etc.com

06-28-2005, 08:06 PM	#12 (permalink)
ronbros Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 24	RICE rockets you guys seem to be bias to other forms of racers, let me see? A GM 4 cyl.ecotec just did a 6.76 at 204 mph, NHRA weight legal. I have heard that them damn supras bottom end can handle 1000 HP. but buick was the 1st to introduce serious electronics, problem electronics dont stop getting better all the time. RON

06-30-2005, 11:49 AM	#13 (permalink)
Steve Wood An American American Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: East of Eden, Texas Posts: 36,899	Took you three years to come up with that pearl? __________________ ------------------ 'A government that is big enough to give you everything you want, is also big enough to take away everything you have.' - Thomas Jefferson I think one should worry more when people are lining up to get out of a country rather than into it. If they're sneaking in, we must be doing something right. The Chronicles of Zap, from the early 21st century www.vortexbuicks-etc.com

06-30-2005, 07:10 PM	#14 (permalink)
VxTurboxV Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 1,711	Hey that was like one of my first posts! Rock on! I had no idea what I was getting my self into back then! __________________ 86 Rx-7 GXL Hybrid 86 Grand National motor and trans. TRW pistons, Webber ported IRONS, Extender chip,Translator plus,Te-45a, Vig.Torque Conv.(3500), Trans Cooler, 55lb inj's, 10mm Race Wires, Adj. FP Regulator,RJC PP ,FMIC 18x32 spearco bar&plate, Custom 3 inch mandrel DP, postons X-over pipe. deltagate WG, 3.40 rear, WB 02 255 60 MT Progressive alky, 1 m15 nozzle. Best E.T. 10.65 Best MPH 131.4 Still tuning. Last edited by VxTurboxV : 07-01-2005 at 02:44 PM.

06-30-2005, 11:24 PM	#15 (permalink)
Razor Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 882	Maybe Elvis can be found..

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