Alky kits, i have read to much and confused

[TTA89]

*Cough* Racegas Rules *Cough*

Actually this is an interesting thread, I think I am going to order one of Julio's kits this year when we get the Limited sorted out.

[Steve Wood]

14 mins...why don't you try one of Razor's kits? Looks like he has spent some time thinking about it and trying to fit the problem as he sees it.

Julio, what types of mixes have you experimented with, and what do you like?

Thanks for taking the time to put down your thoughts. My GN ran almost 102 in the 1/8th back in the late spring on 22# of boost and I had it turned down a couple of pounds. I would say it meets your difficult case as it is a bit over 9-1 cr with a roller cam, heads, bigger turbo, and a 3800 stall converter. Yet, I find it easier to set up than my son's T which has similar compression, but a 2800 stall and only a 44 with a stock cam. It does have good heads.

My car has no problem from either a standing launch or a stomp, but, his car has a little transitional knock at a roll. Using a variable timing that drops back under 3000 rpm wot and then steps up in timing with rpm seemed to have fixed that problem.

My theory was that my softer converter cushioned the shock (load) more from a roll than does his. This tends to make mine a bit harder to get into detonation when it kicks down from a cruise....on the other hand, I could well be wrong.

[mike85gn]

Wow Razor, that kit is niiice! I like the idea of something that auto-adjusts to my boost level. I like to launch with about 5psi boost, if I set an alchy point of just a little beyond that I should notice a huge kick in the *** (especially with the hot-air). I would like to run alky when I get my intake done, it sounds like your system really makes tuning a lot easier. Great work.

Race gas is great! But I think my car would be faster with race gas, alky, and an intercooler. We'll see if it makes a difference next year.

[14mins]

After doing some reading i have decided that i like razor progressive kit the best. 480 dollars and there will not be a controller in sight in the car? Everything can be wired in to look factory? No need to prime or hit a test button like on the SMC kit?

One question i have is on leaving the alky sitting for weeks at a time in the bottle. We run alky in our quads and have to purge every night due to corrisive and the fact that alky with attract mostire. But the mositure attracted by the car kits is not a problem? Looks like lots of guys dulite there alky with water to reduce fire possibility? Straight methonal will do a better job of cooling the motor that methonal and 50 percent water?? Like i said we run methonal all the time in the quads and the last thing we worry about is fire. Is there a reason that i am overlooking as to why the car guys are worried about straight methonal?

Razors kit looks like it will do the best job for me of the kits out there. More expense up front but then play time. It is always ready to go?

[Razor]

14mins, actually there is a prime button on the controller. But it doesnt shoot 100 PSI into the motor. It basically does the same as turnon at 3 PSI.about a little drizzle. I can tell its working by looking at the scanmaster.. you hit the button..look and the o2's go to the 800's while idling. BTW thanks for the compliment

Steve, i've had great success running straight methanol on my car. i had in the past run mixes, but have found best results on the straight stuff. I will not argue adding a little water cant hurt, like 5-10%. I'll probably start back at experimenting with more added water.. I just hated playing chemist, and methanol being as cheap as it is, it was a non-cost issue.

Some cars that can run like 20 PSI on pump gas.. those really wake up with the alcohol. I did a car here that had a front mount, 50's, 70mm, te61, 3500 conv, etc.. that car I could not get it to detonate no matter what we threw at it. It was just that slick. On my car, stock IC, TB, PT51..it will see more knock in upper gears and I have to watch how much is sprayed. Due to limitations i've placed. So all cars will respond different.. Btw 102 in the 1/8 is sum serious MPH. Thats about the fastest i've read anyone going with alky.. so far on a TB ;), glad to see you playing with the stuff. So as far as your car's KR.. ive seen cars that just work so well..and others that dont.

Mike, thats another little added deal I did, I have an input to the controller that as long as that wire sees ground, via switch/relay/etc.. the output is reduced to the turnon setting. So if your building boost, last thing you want is alcohol ruining your spool. As soon as the ground is lifted..woosh goes the alky. That way you dont have to move the turnon point and recalibrate the system when your going to race the car.

If you have a FAST, then a separate 3 bar sensor isnt needed..just like if you own a TTA, a separate 3 bar isnt needed. This drops costs on those kits.

theres a bunch more.. whew

[TTA89]

Originally posted by Razor

On my car, stock IC, TB, PT51..it will see more knock in upper gears and I have to watch how much is sprayed.

51? When did you do that? I thought you have 6X or something?

Taken it to the track with the 51?

I loved that turbo... 3rd gear so so sick in my car. 96-97 in the 1/8th and 121 at the top.

[Steve Wood]

Talking to Steve Yaklin who is familiar with the GM, tests, he reports that 60-40 seemed to give the best results (methanol/water) as I recall our conversations.

Looking at the chemistry and reading what Estill and Ijames posted abvout the properties of the various alkies and water, I thought this made sense. The big but was find water soluble oils to add to the mix.

That brings me to the next question(s) Methanol is pretty corrosive and we used to flush the systems on alcohol cars at the end of the day to keep it from eating up the system. Today, stuff is anodized, or coated, and I know it is not the same level of problem, but, do you advocate any lubricant to prolong the pump, etc? I went back to straight denatured to avoid the lubes and the crud that sometimes resulted when lube, water, and alky got together.

Last question, you mentioned a three bar. I assume that is required to measure boost up to 30#? At the moment, I am running a three bar but it goes to my ecm to provide boost information as I am running an ME-R on the GN so I have no maf, no mas as Roberto would have said.. Not sure if I could parallel it to the alky system safely or not....

These cars are all about combination...Hank Terry ran 11.4 on alky with only a TA49. He believed he could reach the tens, but, I think he got diverted with his swap into an RX7 as I have not seen anymore on his racing lately. Of course he got into the tens on a TE 60 with his other car and we know that is impossible, right?

Thanks for your patience...

[Razor]

Mike..dude I've been running that 51 since June of 2002. hell its killed two tranny's.

Dunno..i've had mine over 94 in the 1/8..well at least on a safe tune... I think 96 is possible given the rite tune-up and timing.

Steve, one thing is the lube is pump dependant. See if the pump you use is a steel roller pump like on the SMC kit, or an EFI pump from a passenger vehicle, you have to run a bunch to keep the pump lubricated, else its toast. I too have read all the papers from Ricardo, Aquamist, Carrolls, etc.. and they point to water, yet my own car responds better on the straight methanol. Actually works too well. And cars that I have personally installed kits on..same thing. So I tend to go the path of least resistance when I see results that are so easy. Today I hit 27 PSI like 5 times..I was demo'ing the TTA to a customer..its a friggen blast to glaze the tires through all first gear.. I like demo rides.. its a sure sell..makes people say..no way..can't be..

So if you run a chemical pump like the shurflo, dont use any lube.. becuase the internals while alcohol compatible, wont handle oils of any kind. And yup to that mess mixing lube, water , and alcohol.. I can only imagine. Try sourcing Methanol, BTW its what Hank Terry uses..

The controller I use works like a charm with the three bar. I have guys with the SC's like 4th gen F-bods using 2 bars since they dont see 15 PSI. The idea is so it has headroom to go and make adjustments to the amount being delivered. I never have had to service my setup yet, its been on for 7 months now.. I dunno if adding water to the alky may make it attack metals and such.. so until thats sorted, have no clear answer. I cant see why..the fittings are brass, the hoses are teflon lined, the pump is basically plastic for its housing, and uses viton for the seals.

Kinda like the MAF sensor ..once it goes to 255.. there was no more adjustment.. Using a 3 bar on alky is kinda like an extender. If you blow past 30 PSI..then time for a 4 bar

HTH.. I wish I had a really fast GN to play with using alky.. I'd put that car in street trim into the 10.50 range no problemo. if I can get a stock TTA into the mid 11's with junk parts ..imagine what can be done with a real setup.

You guys should see the kit I made for a Syclone.. T76, Pontiac 320 cfm heads, 11.5:1 compression, Carillo Rods, 96 lb inj, 90mm TB, FAST, ought to run really good.. Should run 10's.. hehehe

Cheers..

Julio

[Steve Wood]

Thanks for the info.

I believe tens are possible with the right combination....

[forzfed]

Originally posted by Steve Wood
Talking to Steve Yaklin who is familiar with the GM, tests, he reports that 60-40 seemed to give the best results (methanol/water) as I recall our conversations.

In GMHTP, the article they did on his car, it said 90/10 mix. But I never really asked Steve Y. I figure just run straight and let the alcohol absorb the water.

[Steve Wood]

GMHTP also posted that a certain engine builder said one should just reuse the stock push rods after machining the block and heads......of course, this same rebuilder has/had a near perfect failure rate when his stuff went out the door, so.......

[forzfed]

Good point! I didn't say it was gospel.

[Steve Wood]

also...Steve did not say he was running 60-40, just said that was GM's conclusion. I think he normally ran straight methanol...tho I may be misspeaking now.

He runs a Shurflo pump these days..tho I think he bugs me more to fix my GN than he is messing with the white car these days..

[Razor]

As to the mix,

All the cars i've seen post fast times using alcohol have done so straight. Hank Terry is an example, mine, Rob Reeses TTA, there was a guy with a Syclone ran 11.0 at 123 he was straight methanol.. so I dunno.. cant burn water

10's are way possible.. I cannot see why not. This will be the year to se a bunch of fast 10 sec cars on the stuff.

HTH

[stevemon]

Thanks for the new forum Orlando!